so....performance probe.... - Page 3

**Zach** · 5-7-08, 22:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by defiler

Says who? You? Where did you get this magical information from? Obviosuyl nobody has taken it that far, so you have no way of knowing if the block will hold. Being a cast iron block and plenty of beef on the block, I dont see it failing at all. This isnt some cheap aluminum block.

shortened block height, destroked, h-beam rods and micro-polished crank could solve a lot of that problem...or am I wrong abou changing block height and destroking? Please, if I'm talking about of my ass, someone correct me

**defiler** · 5-7-08, 22:35

Quote:

as long as people know what they are driving and are realistic about it, then everyone's happy and threads like this dont come about

Um, IIRC, arent you, among others, one of the guys who have always given Damien [shizzle] because he's always pointing out that this motor is nothing more than a stump-puller, and will never have the potential of other better suited engines?

No, being realistic just makes people pissy because you arent being an optimist and thinking we live in a grand utopia (PP anyone?)

**Ryan** · 5-7-08, 22:44

I've been TRYING to break my engine at 270whp, even up to purporsefully leaning it out to 14.7:1 AFR under 20psi of boost....That didn't do it, so I turned it up again....Still hasn't blown...

Thus, while the logic is circuitous at best, I'd say it's a safe bet 350whp is absolutely not out of the question on stock internals.

Turbo GT. You are a a gross ignoramus. The InTeRnAlZ of the F2T and FE3 are nearly identical but for niggly details like rod length.

Ryan

**defiler** · 5-7-08, 22:48

^^Can you get a video of when it does blow? Carnage like that doesnt come around too often

**Ryan** · 5-7-08, 23:01

Bet your ass! In widescreen High-Def too

The motor smokes, compression has dropped to 95-100psi/cylinder, still runs 13.7 @104 up here at 4500ft and seems happy to stay that way...I'm thinking 100 shot. Not enough to blow on the first run, hopefully enough to blow on the second. If not, then 150 shot and so on until it gives up

Ryan

**defiler** · 5-7-08, 23:32

Bah. Just make it catastrophic with a 250 shot right off the bat

**Ryan** · 5-8-08, 0:45

That is tempting...But, just one run on a 100 shot, just one run for the chance to pull a 12.9@ 112 or something similar...that would be awesome

Zach, to answer your question about building the engine, building it to tolerate RPM's is not the problem. Period. I would not myself be too quick to judge the flow characteristics of the head either. The cam on the other hand IMHO leaves a lot to be desired as it has as much, possibly more to do with the engine's powerband as does the head design. Bottom end engine geometry is a relatively small part of the equation. It has more to do with high RPM stability and longevity than simply the powerband.

However, on that subject, if you were able to push the wrist pins further upward into the pistons, thereby lengthening the rods you could reduce the rod/stroke ratio, which would make the bottom end more rpm capable. The last thing I would want to futz with is shortening the deck height as you'll be changing, among other other things, the timing belt geometry.

H-Beam Rods and micro-polishing are more necessities of the needed changes, not necessarily a the means to the end.

Ryan

**gavin** · 5-8-08, 1:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by zlyricist

i think you would be suprised gavin. i belive that is the mentality of a lot of people on car forums, and that is why a lot of people have moved on. as long as people know what they are driving and are realistic about it, then everyone's happy and threads like this dont come about

hell im still happy with the platform after all this time, and probably will be for a few more years, its not a high horsepower 4g63, but its also not something you see every day

Oh Im quite familiar with the mentality of the people on the forum. It is, in general and no specific order...pie-in-the-sky, lacking in vision/imagination and defeatist in nature. A pretty bad mix any way you cut it.

let me check on something for a moment.....

"Defeatism is acceptance of defeat without struggle" (strangely that came from wikipedia)

yeah...that seems about right.

Ive mentioned it before over the years, so youll have to bear with me, but "1% inspiration, 99% perspiration" and all that. Its no surprise that there isnt an aftermarket for the f2. You have to have imagination of what could be (more than just the simple add big turbo nonsense), serious thinking about how to get there and then the work(and successive failures) needed to get to the goal. Thats how aftermarkets start. Rome wasnt built in a day and the aftermarket for the 4g63 wasnt either.

Speaking of other platforms, I seem to recall a story maybe 5-6yrs ago about a fellow with a nissan 240 with the KA engine. He wanted to make lots of power, everyone told him to not waste his time with a truck motor. His time would be better spent with the superior-in-every-way SR20DET. He ignored the talk and made his first attempt...and promptly blew his engine to bits. Much laughter ensued and he was told that he was a fool for even trying, but, learning from his first attempt, he tried again....and blew that one apart again. It took about 5 or so motors before he got the numbers and reliability people said were impossible.

Now clearly this fellow had a fair amount of money to keep this up and I know people on this forum like to talk about how cheap they are(its a great way of avoiding the possibility of success...you know..defeatist), but it strikes me that the main thing about this fellows success was his ability to think through the issues that he was facing.

What is the limit of an F2T?....no really. What is its full potential? Why cant it be more powerful than a 4g63? Whats stopping it?

Whats stopping you?

Meh, Im a suspension guy so I shouldnt care too much. It just strikes me odd that there is (collectively) some decent talent on this site but everyone seems to have talked themselves out of the possibility of what could be. Worse even is the talking down of the new folks(ok, granted most of the suggestions lack any serious thought). Somewhere on this site there someone who has an answer to a question that hasnt been asked, but they wont say anything for fear of being ridiculed/belief that theres no point on "that truck motor".

Anyway, I make one of these posts every 3 or so years so that should be enough rambling. Besides, I have to get some sleep (theres some $7000 struts I have to prep for welding that eventually will be fitted on the white car).

Gavin (lots of persiration)

**Ryan** · 5-8-08, 2:05

There are indeed too few people who bother to really try something new, really try to accomplish something.

I'm contemplating something new...Brandon (rebel) turned me on to this. Holsett HY35. F2T with a sheetmetal intake mani and all the proper trimmings on an otherwise stock motor, megasquirt ect ect. 400whp F2t anybody?

And if you call BS and say it won't happen you don't have the balls to try

Ryan

compnut21 · 5-8-08, 2:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by gavin

shortend for all of humanity

i agree with you a lot there.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ryan

There are indeed too few people who bother to really try something new, really try to accomplish something.

I'm contemplating something new...Brandon (rebel) turned me on to this. Holsett HY35. F2T with a sheetmetal intake mani and all the proper trimmings on an otherwise stock motor, megasquirt ect ect. 400whp F2t anybody?

Ryan

i put a megasquirt on an otherwise stock f2t and saw a power gain. (butt dyno, but even zach agreed it was faster) theres a lot of little improvements, but most people just go with what they know will work, or cheap out and put the biggest turbo possible and hack the ecu to running halfassed.

**Ryan** · 5-8-08, 2:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by compnut21

but most people just go with what they know will work, or cheap out and put the biggest turbo possible and hack the ecu to running halfassed.

Exactly. And if you're halfway smart it will work. Hell, that's pretty much all I did. Bigger turbo. Remove Boost Cut. Add fuel.

Just imagine what's possible with real effort

Ryan

compnut21 · 5-8-08, 2:20

larger turbo, cams, ms, turn up the boost, full intake/exhaust, injectors/fuelpump. theres more and more things like a exhaust mani and sheetmetal intake with shorter larger runners and such. at that level, i wonder how much a different tb would help.

**Ryan** · 5-8-08, 2:26

Good hell, look at it...I don't know how the engine makes the power it does!

But really, I would leave the cam alone. My plan would involve careful tuning and loads of boost,

Note: I don't mention reliability at this power level, I'm sure the stock pistons would give it up before too long...but if they were forged the rods wouldn't likely care.

Ryan

compnut21 · 5-8-08, 2:30

I've been reading a lot about the stock cams, and if i remember right they have like no duration at all and the lift wasn't the best either. i think someone saw like 10hp on the stock setup with a cam, so thats like 25 with ms and more boost?

edit: it should be worth a note both the f2 and the f2t had the same cam.

**Ryan** · 5-8-08, 2:33

Yeah, they completely suck. I could be (probably) off my rocker wanting that kind of HP on the stock cam. But until I am proven wrong, or prove myself wrong, I maintain it as a goal. It just may take some time, I've been having fun autocrossing lately

Ryan

5-7-08, 22:44	#33 (permalink)
Ryan Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Salt Lake City, UT, USA Age: 25 iTrader: (0)	I've been TRYING to break my engine at 270whp, even up to purporsefully leaning it out to 14.7:1 AFR under 20psi of boost....That didn't do it, so I turned it up again....Still hasn't blown... Thus, while the logic is circuitous at best, I'd say it's a safe bet 350whp is absolutely not out of the question on stock internals. Turbo GT. You are a a gross ignoramus. The InTeRnAlZ of the F2T and FE3 are nearly identical but for niggly details like rod length. Ryan
	Carmen likes to play with CONES PhotoBucket

5-7-08, 22:48	#34 (permalink)
defiler All lies lead to a truth. Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Coon Rapids, MN, USA Age: 23 iTrader: (8)	^^Can you get a video of when it does blow? Carnage like that doesnt come around too often
	-Sometimes you have to lie to find out what the truth is.... 89MX6 GT 4WS

5-7-08, 23:01	#35 (permalink)
Ryan Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Salt Lake City, UT, USA Age: 25 iTrader: (0)	Bet your ass! In widescreen High-Def too The motor smokes, compression has dropped to 95-100psi/cylinder, still runs 13.7 @104 up here at 4500ft and seems happy to stay that way...I'm thinking 100 shot. Not enough to blow on the first run, hopefully enough to blow on the second. If not, then 150 shot and so on until it gives up Ryan
	Carmen likes to play with CONES PhotoBucket

5-7-08, 23:32	#36 (permalink)
defiler All lies lead to a truth. Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Coon Rapids, MN, USA Age: 23 iTrader: (8)	Bah. Just make it catastrophic with a 250 shot right off the bat
	-Sometimes you have to lie to find out what the truth is.... 89MX6 GT 4WS

5-8-08, 0:45	#37 (permalink)
Ryan Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Salt Lake City, UT, USA Age: 25 iTrader: (0)	That is tempting...But, just one run on a 100 shot, just one run for the chance to pull a 12.9@ 112 or something similar...that would be awesome Zach, to answer your question about building the engine, building it to tolerate RPM's is not the problem. Period. I would not myself be too quick to judge the flow characteristics of the head either. The cam on the other hand IMHO leaves a lot to be desired as it has as much, possibly more to do with the engine's powerband as does the head design. Bottom end engine geometry is a relatively small part of the equation. It has more to do with high RPM stability and longevity than simply the powerband. However, on that subject, if you were able to push the wrist pins further upward into the pistons, thereby lengthening the rods you could reduce the rod/stroke ratio, which would make the bottom end more rpm capable. The last thing I would want to futz with is shortening the deck height as you'll be changing, among other other things, the timing belt geometry. H-Beam Rods and micro-polishing are more necessities of the needed changes, not necessarily a the means to the end. Ryan
	Carmen likes to play with CONES PhotoBucket

5-8-08, 2:05	#39 (permalink)
Ryan Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Salt Lake City, UT, USA Age: 25 iTrader: (0)	There are indeed too few people who bother to really try something new, really try to accomplish something. I'm contemplating something new...Brandon (rebel) turned me on to this. Holsett HY35. F2T with a sheetmetal intake mani and all the proper trimmings on an otherwise stock motor, megasquirt ect ect. 400whp F2t anybody? And if you call BS and say it won't happen you don't have the balls to try Ryan Last edited by Ryan : 5-8-08 at 2:12.
	Carmen likes to play with CONES PhotoBucket

5-8-08, 2:20	#42 (permalink)
compnut21 Bear on the internet. Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: Olympia, WA iTrader: (5)	larger turbo, cams, ms, turn up the boost, full intake/exhaust, injectors/fuelpump. theres more and more things like a exhaust mani and sheetmetal intake with shorter larger runners and such. at that level, i wonder how much a different tb would help.
	89 GT 4WS/Megasquirt/No Engine/∞ mpg My Fe3 Project Thread

5-8-08, 2:26	#43 (permalink)
Ryan Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Salt Lake City, UT, USA Age: 25 iTrader: (0)	Good hell, look at it...I don't know how the engine makes the power it does! But really, I would leave the cam alone. My plan would involve careful tuning and loads of boost, Note: I don't mention reliability at this power level, I'm sure the stock pistons would give it up before too long...but if they were forged the rods wouldn't likely care. Ryan
	Carmen likes to play with CONES PhotoBucket

5-8-08, 2:30	#44 (permalink)
compnut21 Bear on the internet. Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: Olympia, WA iTrader: (5)	I've been reading a lot about the stock cams, and if i remember right they have like no duration at all and the lift wasn't the best either. i think someone saw like 10hp on the stock setup with a cam, so thats like 25 with ms and more boost? edit: it should be worth a note both the f2 and the f2t had the same cam.
	89 GT 4WS/Megasquirt/No Engine/∞ mpg My Fe3 Project Thread

5-8-08, 2:33	#45 (permalink)
Ryan Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Salt Lake City, UT, USA Age: 25 iTrader: (0)	Yeah, they completely suck. I could be (probably) off my rocker wanting that kind of HP on the stock cam. But until I am proven wrong, or prove myself wrong, I maintain it as a goal. It just may take some time, I've been having fun autocrossing lately Ryan
	Carmen likes to play with CONES PhotoBucket