Comments on: 2nd gen Illumina to 1st gen conversion (and other things) HOW-TO

[gavin]

Yes you could. However the only reason I did the conversion was that there were some struts available for the 2nd gen (illuminas) that werent available for the 1st gen. All others, monroe, kyb, gariel, etc are available for both. There wouldnt really be much of a gain to convert those.

Gavin

[FreshmanMX6]

I'm sorry to keep bugging you with questions just one more can i install coilovers just the same on the first gen as you did on the 2gen strut? Here's the thing i am not looking to be lower or to racing. Just want it stiffer for now. I cant corner it likes to slide around corners

[KiNg MaRtY]

yes, its the same

[my89gt]

look in the suspension archive and look for gavins other thread on the koni strut inserts, that will help u out alot..

[gavin]

Originally Posted by FreshmanMX6

I cant corner it likes to slide around corners

Explain, because this seems to be the issue more than anything. What is it that you are trying to make the car do(any car will slide if you give it too much gas)? And what is it that the car is not doing to your expectation?

What is the current state of your car in regards to running gear? Wheels? tires? swaybars? struts? Age of struts? What maintainance ave you performed to the cars running gear recently? Bushings, linkages etc?


Yes coilovers are not specific to 1st gen or 2nd gen and will work on both.

Gavin

[STW]

Superb write-up! Too bad the GV rear suspension is slightly different to both GD and GE (Actually it's similar to 4wd GD) so I'll need to figure that bit myself If I'm going to install those. :/

on the subject of shaving shocks vs. spindles, I would probably actually rather shave the spindle. If the brackets on the shocks are, say, 4mm thick each, shaving 1mm off would mean 12.5% loss of structural thickness, while in a 25mm spindle it would mean only 4% loss of strength.

[gavin]

Thanks. I do try.

Perhaps this is more useful then?
http://www.mx6.com/forums/showthread.php?t=144248 (Koni insert installation)

Just substitute the 86-series specials(aka: "reds") instead of the GE single adjustables.

Shaving the spindles is an option. However, as I compete in a partcular discipline I have to comply by the competition ruleset. I can run "any" shock I want (so I can implicitly add/remove/modify any item that can fit my car). The rules however have no allowance for modification of attatchment points/hubs so I cannot legally shave the hubs for fitment(a good thing because soon you would see reengineered pickup points).

On a practical note the original illuminas I had are on to their 3rd owner. As far as I recall they were still working well(in terms of damping). As for the ears? No excess wear/failure mode has been noted. While Ill agree that there is a higher percentage of material/strength to be lost from the ears than the spindle it seems to be academic.

Gavin

[Project_2501]

Whoo, thread revival.

Okay, so when you mount the lower coilover sleeve onto the tube, do you need to weld the bottom end? I can't see the remnants of the old weld bead holding up to a good spanking from driving. And the same goes for the larger ring (like you did with the Koni's).

Also, the adjustment for the damper/rebound is at the top of the shaft, right? Is it that little black knob that sticks up?

[gavin]

Originally Posted by Project_2501

Whoo, thread revival.

Okay, so when you mount the lower coilover sleeve onto the tube, do you need to weld the bottom end? I can't see the remnants of the old weld bead holding up to a good spanking from driving. And the same goes for the larger ring (like you did with the Koni's).

The coilover sleeve rests on top of the existing weld thats left after removing the spring perches. Removing the spring perches is optional. Its usually removed to allow more space for different tire/wheel fitments. The remaining weld is (if not messed up by the removal of the perches) actually quite strong. With a quality coilover sleeve there is little chance of breaking the weld or damaging the sleeve. On some of the cheaper ebay coilovers I have seen the ends of the sleeves "mushroom" and even split as the aluminum used is cheap and soft.

In other words, the worry placed on the weld is a bit misplaced. Barring an accident of some sort the "weakest" point in this assembly is the aluminum sleeve, not the steel weld.

As for the welded ring on the konis...well, I cant say much more on it other than, its not even a concern of mine even if they were under twice the weight of the car.

Originally Posted by Project

Also, the adjustment for the damper/rebound is at the top of the shaft, right? Is it that little black knob that sticks up?

If you mean the Konis, those are just boots to protect the adjusters. The adjustment is at the top of the shaft as you mentioned however.

Gavin

[Project_2501]

I appreciate the fast response.

What sparked my curiosity was that you left the weld intact in one instance, but put the ring carrier in place in another.

And the perch can be left alone even when running coilovers? Either way I'd cut them for more room.

Another note: I didn't know the sleeves were Al, which is why I figured they'd be welded to the shaft, but that makes sense. I suspect I'll go with your method for the carrier ring - if just for piece of mind at the least.

[gavin]

Originally Posted by Project_2501

What sparked my curiosity was that you left the weld intact in one instance, but put the ring carrier in place in another.

Fair enough question. Couple reasons for one and not the other.
- I didnt know what the upper limits of the available damping was for the Illuminas were(and likewise the needed spring rate). At 450lbs that was the uppermost that I felt that the illuminas could handle in the front. The coilover sleeves seemed to be "ok" with that as well with no buckling or mushrooming. I wanted something else though and so the development stopped there with the illuminas.
-The weld on the illuminas was a 360deg weld unlike some struts that only weld at the 3 points that the lower spring perch touch. This large weld coupled with my reluctance at the idea of welding on a gas charged strut made me leave it as it was.
-The konis were sure to handle much higher spring rates and I wanted a more robust, flat mounting point than even what was on the illuminas. I also didnt want the coilover sleeves to be forced into some odd shape because of the heavy spring rates.

Originally Posted by Project_2501

And the perch can be left alone even when running coilovers? Either way I'd cut them for more room.

Correct, you can leave the perch and have adequite tire clearance..although you will be limited to sizes of wheels/tires that can fit on the stock suspension. Some people have left the spring perch intact, ror me, I needed the space for(much) wider tires so I lopped them off.

Originally Posted by Project_2501

Another note: I didn't know the sleeves were Al, which is why I figured they'd be welded to the shaft, but that makes sense. I suspect I'll go with your method for the carrier ring - if just for piece of mind at the least.

The vast majority of coilover sleeves are aluminum. I think carrera has steel sleeves. Adding the perch was a more thorough setup and thats what I wanted.

Gavin

[Gabe17]

Not sure if you are using a custom spring rate from ground control or not, but just figured i'd add my personal experience here. I'm running this setup using ground control's pre-determined spring rate and have cut the spring perches. I have around 25-30k miles on them so far, potholes and all included, and no problems at all. I'd say the weld is safe.

[Project_2501]

Alright, I have another question for you:

I'll follow suit and get the ground controls, but my question is: "what kit?" On their site there is this: Ground Control Suspension Systems , Ground Control Suspension Systems , and this: Ground Control Suspension Systems

The reason I throw the last one in there, is because the struts are for the 2nd gen, would I want to get the kit for the 2nd gen as well? I believe in the Koni thread you mentioned there being a dimensional difference, and this leads me to this question.

Thanks, as always.

[Gabe17]

you want to get the model made for the 1st gens. so either of the first two links will be fine. not really sure why there is two different links, kind of strange.

[Project_2501]

Once I get around to dropping the coin on that (have to redo basic stock stuff first, control arms etc.), I'll give them a call and see what's up.