going MS...

[n2o_matt]

Well engine is rebuilt, good compression, new turbo is in place, the car is now running well at 8psi - i think i'm about ready for MS. I know that i could prob get away without it, but now that i have a beater the 6 has turned into a project car that just doesn't feel right if i don't have something to do to it. I'd like to get MS not so much b/c its my only option but b/c i want to learn about FI and tuning so it seems to be the best option.

I've been reading up on the ms forums and faq's and i've got most of the basics down on what i need but each car is different and i'm wondering if anyone that has MS'ed an F2T before could help me out, maybe just give me some tips on problems that they've run into.

My major concern/confusion is what to do about ignition - i'm pretty sure we need a VR sensor and a coil driver (VB921) - But do i need to mod the ditsy to work with the VR sensor and MS?

Aside from ignition - i think i'm going with MSnS v2.2 or 3.0 <-- which is a better choice 2.2/3.0?

Thanks for any help - I know there aren't many ms'ers around so...

[Dyoel182]

Best of luck with it. I was gonna make a wisecrack about this being an expensive fix for that knock sensor, but I'll refrain.

[n2o_matt]

lol - i knew that would come up lol. I replaced the KS with one i found in a pile of spare parts and my codes are gone (egr code is gone too ) I'm going to post in that thread soon with my resistance/voltage findings soon...

[MazdaMan069]

Nice man. Keep us up to date on this. I've wanted to play with it for a while, but I don't really know that much about it.

[tyler886]

Rumor has it, that it would be easier using an LX/DX disty. Personally though, I'd rather run V3 with coilpacks and completely eliminate the distributor.

-Tyler

[Dyoel182]

Well you still need it there to plug the head, but not for spark.

[tyler886]

Didnt F2Truck (or something like that) make a block off plate?

EDIT: Found it, it was GTkid22
http://www.mx6.com/forums/showthread...ighlight=b2200 (B2200 F2T Swap: put a Turbo in your Truck!)

-Tyler

[n2o_matt]

but even with individual coils, you still need some time of sensor to tell MS when to fire right? ie Hall sensor/VR sensor

why is the n/a distributor easier? I know that the advance would have to me disabled so it sounds more difficult.

*edit* - i'm trying to read up on this, but right now i'm really confussed about the diff between a hall sensor and a VR sensor. Is a VR sensor just for the measuring form the crank and a hall sensor for measuring from the disty?

[RbluEMx6]

Originally Posted by megasquirt.info

The VR sensor is an induction type sensor, it is passive;, i.e. it does not require a power source, and has a small magnet built in. It basically works like a dynamo. The output of this sensor varies with the speed of the engine. At idle the output is approximately .6 volts, at mid RPM it is closer to 3 volts, and at high revs it goes to almost 50 volts. You have to keep in mind that this type of sensor produces an AC output. The pulse is positive when the pole is approaching, and negative when the pole is leaving (provided you have the right polarity). The simplest way to see this is by hooking it up to a cheap analog voltmeter and using a wrench or other non magnetic - soft iron; piece of metal. When you put the metal piece on the sensor the needle on the voltmeter will swing one way. When you quickly remove it the needle will swing the other way.

A Hall sensor is an active magnetic field presence sensor. It is based on the Hall effect, that is a semiconductor changes its resistance in a presence of a magnetic field. These types of sensors require a flying magnet wheel. Instead of teeth on the wheel you must have small magnets. This type of sensor has an electronic circuitry built inside and thus provides a constant voltage pulse regardless of the speed. The sensor is also sensitive to the polarity of the magnet. N pole will turn it on, S will not, or vice versa dependent on the orientation of the sensor. The pulse produced is as long as there is a magnetic field of some strength present, and is always of the same polarity (positive with respect to ground).

You can use the ford EDIS ignition system. And it is plentiful at the junk yards, ford escorts of the mid 90's. It uses a 34 teeth crank trigger and coil packs. There is a diagram on the site that shows how to connect them to MS.

You could also keep your dis, and wire in an MSD ignition.

[n2o_matt]

hmmm... looks like i have a bunch more reading to do...

when you say "a 34 teeth crank trigger" how does this devise actualy work? I mean what is it driven by - the actual crank? If so, i can't really imagine how that would work with our setup, where would it read from?

bah... i'm gonna go read more...

[RbluEMx6]

If you have ever seen an the ignition set-up on an electromotive TEC3, its the same thing. You have a wheel with x amount of teeth minus one tooth mounted on the crank pulley. The VR sensor is placed over this on a fixed postion, and gets a reading everytime a tooth passes under it(when the crank rotates). The signal is sent back to the ECU to determine ignition timing and so on.

You can sorta get the idea.
http://www.megasquirt.info/ms2/EDIS.htm


edit: its a 36 - 1 tooth wheel.

[n2o_matt]

WOW - well i now i understand what EDIS is. And i kinda understand the diff between the Hall and VR sensors. Thanks for the help.

I'm really not worried about having multiple coil packs,, i really just want the most simple/cheapest way to give MS ignition control. I mean does the dizzy really hurt that much?

IDK but i was reading up on the diff between lx/dx distributers and the gt's. I found this: http://www.autoshop101.com/forms/h23.pdf

but after about 5mins of reading, my brain melted. lol Are both VR sensors or is one a hall sensor? What is even crazier is that i've read that vr sensors will work direcltly with the v3 boards only to later find someone else say that they don't and that hall sensor works better (this is what the 2gen guys have i guess) Ahh.. its hard enough to learn this stuff, but when diff people are saying diff things its even harder - care to set my head back strait?

[rebel2k4]

For ign out, you can run either a VB921 (built into V3.0) or the stock ignition module. With V3 its less work to just fire the coil directly from the MS and eliminate the stock ign module, but you can do either. I bypassed the VB921 and run just a pullup off the V3 to my stock ign module.

The GT disty has a VR sensor built in. Im not aware of the teeth count since I dont own a 1g anymore, but you can certainly pull one apart and take a look. Either that or search the PT electronics forums instead of reinventing the wheel. Theres a few 'squirters over there that can help you out with 1g specifics. The general concept is that you want a signal for each firing event per cylinder per crank rotation (this would equate to 4 equally spaced triggers on the disty--since cam spins half as fast as crank, or 2 on the crank for a 4 cylinder)

Either way, you want V3. It has the VR conditioner circuit (1g GTs DO HAVE a VR sensor in the disty). If you go with V2.2, you will be building another board to condition the circuit, and you just dont want to get into that at this point. Its much easier for you to run the V3.

The VR sensor generally gives a cleaner signal than a hall sensor. As for us 2g guys, we have a hall sensor in the disty and a VR sensor on the crank. I have been using a hall sensor and still do but I will be switching to the VR for coilpacks and in an attempt to solve my tach spike problem

[Dyoel182]

Originally Posted by n2o_matt

I'm really not worried about having multiple coil packs,, i really just want the most simple/cheapest way to give MS ignition control. I mean does the dizzy really hurt that much?

IDK but i was reading up on the diff between lx/dx distributers and the gt's. I found this: http://www.autoshop101.com/forms/h23.pdf

No the dizzy doesnt hurt that much, but its a mechanical part and you're still stuck with one coil doing all the work. An aftermarket ignition box might simplify things in terms of wiring it in instead of coil packs, the initial cost might be a turn off.

As for the dizzys, the LX one has a pickup coil and control module driving the coil and tach but it might not be as easy to get the signal you need to drive the coils.

[RbluEMx6]

Originally Posted by rebel2k4

I have been using a hall sensor and still do but I will be switching to the VR for coilpacks and in an attempt to solve my tach spike problem

Here is the link to troubleshooting tach spikes:

http://www.megasquirt.info/v22manual/mwire.htm

It is close to the bottom under ignition triggering
"For Hall sensors, taking the signal right off of the hall sensor works nicely. The value of the pull-up resistor, as well as the 390 ohm series resistor, may need to be adjusted. There are plenty of people on the msefi.com forums with experience on how to do this."