My 300mm brake upgrade

**SABBAi** · 1-7-08, 17:39

I decided after many track days and motorkhanas, that the brakes on the Telstar were not up to the job of fast stopping, multiple times.

Many things were tried including slotted rotors, expensive pads (ie custom cut pads), braided lines, different master cylinders, better fluid, etc. It helped, but it wasn’t enough. The best way to improve braking is to increase the disc diameter.

I had tried in the past to fit R33 calipers and rotors to Old Red (RIP), but due to the goofy mounting tabs Mazda/Ford supplied off the hub, I couldn’t mount the callipers unless I was running some stupidly size 350mm+ rotor. I liked my 17’s and thought 19’s were not the way to go.

The brake setup was sold off a few years ago, with me still having stock brakes. After purchasing the current car and deciding that big power is nice, I also thought that big braking power is better………at keeping me not dead.

I got hold of the DBA catalogue and went through it like a plough, trying to match up the stock rotor dimentions (minus the riadius of course) with the magical 300mm number. Many came up that were close, such as the XR5 and a few others, but settled on the 02+ Honda Integra Type S rotors. The type R rotors were basically the same, but had 10mm increase in height, meaning I would have to offset the calliper 10mm towards the body. I was happier to not do that.

Having 1mm thicker rotor was no big deal as it offset the 0.5mm increase in height. If I was to machine the rotors down to 24mm thickness, then the height would be identical. This was starting to look a little too easy.

So I bought a set of Type S rotors new. I tried to get RDA ones, but they just don’t make them. So I had to bite the bullet and get DBA ones, which, even at trade price were damn pricey. Out of the box though, and I was instantly impressed by build quality and the physical size difference over stock.

Next I needed to make up an adaptor, so out came my trusty saw and a piece of lovely fence paling. I made up a mock-up out of wood to test if everything would line up and fit correctly. I knocked up a basic bracket and it all seemed to line up and work nicely.

After chatting to one of the guys at work, who had access to the workshop, we started to talk about the best way to go about making the brackets. We would replicate my wooden bracket making some changes to thickness, length and obviously material. I was keen to use mild steel, but his views were that it would be too heavy and would rust if left bare.

He suggested aluminium just in a thicker sizing than what I wanted to use in mild steel. We went about making 2 blocks of the same size to our new dimensions. After about 6 hours of machine work, 2 hours of handwork, 30mins of sandblasting the basic brackets were completed. They looked fantastic, especially in the satin finish from the light sandblast.

After all this, it was decided that some stainless steel was to be used to offset the calliper from it’s new bracket. Some rod was machined to fit in the space constraints and the centre drilled for the bolt. After about 1 ½ hours, the offsets were completed, with the ends de-burred and polished.

It was all coming together.

Once I got home, it was time to start bolting them to the car. This is a final trial fit on the project sedan which I know needs a new CV, etc…..

Once I had them on the car, I couldn’t fit the 15” rims I had it sitting on. Luckily, I had my 16 x 7 ‘Matchbox’ rims at hand to trial fit. They only just fit over my new anchors.

Having a spare 17” rim sitting there, I also fitted that up for a comparison. They fill the rim up pretty good too!

Next, is working on an upgrade for the rears....

Mx-6Hybrid · 1-7-08, 18:03

thatz nice, u should put that bracket into production, i would defirntly buy it

Probe_Racer · 1-7-08, 21:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mx-6Hybrid

thatz nice, u should put that bracket into production, i would defirntly buy it

i second that

**Stevoh** · 1-8-08, 1:17

I third that. Nice thanks for sharing man. Looks sweet. If the bracekts are of the right price I would definitely buy a set. Now I wonder how shipping would be.

Keep us updated if anything happens for the rear, the inner wheel bearing is going to be a problem. Maybe a custom/modified rotor would be best?

**Gabe17** · 1-8-08, 2:22

Very nice work. I'd buy a set as well.

One thing you don't want to forget though is the clamping force from the caliper which I see you still have the stock one mounted. Yes, you will benefit from the upgraded rotors, having more surface area to shed heat and reduce brake fade,etc. But the point of stopping fast would be well...just that, stopping.

Being that the two pieces work hand in hand so to speak, to benefit most, you need the clamping force from the caliper to achieve that stop on a dime high performance feel, which i'm pretty sure your after since you've put this effort in to make such a nice adaptor.

Has the thought crossed your mind in taking the project a step further to find an upgraded caliper to pair with those rotors and making the adaptor to fit those instead? There have been a couple of other threads i recall off the top of my head on the subject that Gavin had done awhile back and Dutch has worked on more recently. If you havent seen them yet, do a search and maybe you can get some ideas to take this further from what they've done so far if your interested.

Once again lookin reallll good. karma to you.

**SABBAi** · 1-8-08, 3:14

Thanks for the kind words and feedback. I do intend on upgrading the calipers. I have a set of the legacy calipers here and could fit them into this bracket if I wanted, but I intend on changing the bracket as well in the near future.
I have been in discussion with both Dutch and Gavin over brake upgrades. Gavin's upgrade improved braking force distribution on the face of the pad which is what you are talking about.

**chief tool** · 1-8-08, 3:47

Does look like a good idea...nice.

Just out of general interest how much coin did you shell out on the type S DBA's ?

Also it doesn't look like you have but did you machine the extra mm off the rotor ? I'd be thinking about halving the rotor life by machining a mm off it to begin with esp if you use metal pads like I do....I replace the rotors and the pads together..about every 20kkm

One thing I have noticed tho, not all pads have the same amount of material on them when new, depending on brand you might find that some pads will fit with the wider rotor out of sheer good luck.... I noticed this when I recently tossed my old rotors for new RDAs and bought some EBC greens at the same time, they seemed to be a just that bit thinner than bendix metal king...but I didnt measure so I cant be 100% sure.

fredio54 · 1-8-08, 7:49

Nice work SABBAI :-) K given

One question, is it legal to have ally brackets in australia? i would expect it wouldnt be legal in nz, though, i like the idea for unsprung weight reasons, i dont like the idea from strength point of view.

ally is strong per weight, per volume it is not as strong as steel without going to some fancy grade. who knows how such grades behave with heat cycles too!

Thanks for posting all the data :-)

Fred

fredio54 · 1-8-08, 7:50

Another question, do they spec the inside diameter of the hat where it seats onto the hub? thats a factor for me :-)

**STW** · 1-8-08, 9:05

Great job! Very nice as is and with Legacy calipers it sounds even better.

**SABBAi** · 1-8-08, 16:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by chief tool

Does look like a good idea...nice.

Just out of general interest how much coin did you shell out on the type S DBA's ?
Also it doesn't look like you have but did you machine the extra mm off the rotor ?

The DBA's at trade price were $350 a pair. I didn't machine the extra 1mm off, as they fitted with my new Ultimates.

Quote:

Originally Posted by fredio54

One question, is it legal to have ally brackets in australia?

One word, no. But you can get them engineered.

Quote:

Originally Posted by fredio54

ally is strong per weight, per volume it is not as strong as steel without going to some fancy grade. who knows how such grades behave with heat cycles too!

I did look into this. This is the reasoning behind using 19mm thick plate. After discussing with the workshop guys as well as a mate owns an engineering/fabrication facility, it was either 8mm steel plate powder coated. I've seen what happens to powder coating in track conditions with heat cycling from braking. It's not pretty and can actually go up in flames. If it starts running, you'll have a hell of a time getting it off. We had some wheels powder coated on one of the cars used for circuit. After 3 sessions at Phillip Island, the powder coating had run off the wheels and onto the hub. To get the wheel off we had to get violent, very violent.........

Quote:

Originally Posted by fredio54

Another question, do they spec the inside diameter of the hat where it seats onto the hub? thats a factor for me :-)

They do not list the inside diameter unfortunately. However, it would seem that the material around the hub is 7mm in thickness.

**Stevoh** · 1-9-08, 0:31

That's sweet that the center bore is the same for both rotors.

Also you mention that the Integra/RSX rotors are a 10mm greater height difference than stock, isn't it more like 18 mm? There is a 36mm difference between both rotors. The chart does say there is only a 1/2 inch difference, I am confused.

Also does a 1mm difference in thickness make that big a difference? The caliper would not be able to fit over the Type S rotors?

Good on you for getting the Legacy calipers, I was going to mention it in this post but seems you have that covered. Sweet man.

fredio54 · 1-9-08, 4:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by SABBAi

One word, no. But you can get them engineered.

in nz i suspect that you couldnt get a cert with them at all. no brake mods like that are legal without a cert anyway. but the cert rules are thorough and fussy. no "no bov" rules though, thats just gay.

Quote:

After discussing with the workshop guys as well as a mate owns an engineering/fabrication facility, it was either 8mm steel plate powder coated. I've seen what happens to powder coating in track conditions with heat cycling from braking. It's not pretty and can actually go up in flames. If it starts running, you'll have a hell of a time getting it off.

powder coating is fully the wrong way to go for a brake/wheel application, at least traditional plastic powder. i don't understand why you care about surface rust on them, but if you do, some high temp zinc paint on all the non machine surfaces would stop them corroding, as a bonus, if it gets really hot, good zinc paint melts and galvanises the part :-)

Quote:

They do not list the inside diameter unfortunately. However, it would seem that the material around the hub is 7mm in thickness.

by that do you mean that they DO list the OD of the hub section?

(thinking from a browsing a catalog for rotor options for the ute without access to touching them physically with a vernier)

**SABBAi** · 1-9-08, 17:30

No they don't list the outside diameter either.

fredio54 · 1-22-08, 0:45

bump with some info fresh from the certifier in the land of the long white cloud :

minimum 8mm steel, 12mm aluminium

so at 19mm, you piss in. i'll keep that in mind. if its legal, then theres a good chance its pretty safe ;-)

i'll say it again, nice job, and good idea on the wood fitment!

1-7-08, 17:39	#1 (permalink)
SABBAi Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Melbourne, Australia iTrader: (1)	My 300mm brake upgrade I decided after many track days and motorkhanas, that the brakes on the Telstar were not up to the job of fast stopping, multiple times. Many things were tried including slotted rotors, expensive pads (ie custom cut pads), braided lines, different master cylinders, better fluid, etc. It helped, but it wasn’t enough. The best way to improve braking is to increase the disc diameter. I had tried in the past to fit R33 calipers and rotors to Old Red (RIP), but due to the goofy mounting tabs Mazda/Ford supplied off the hub, I couldn’t mount the callipers unless I was running some stupidly size 350mm+ rotor. I liked my 17’s and thought 19’s were not the way to go. The brake setup was sold off a few years ago, with me still having stock brakes. After purchasing the current car and deciding that big power is nice, I also thought that big braking power is better………at keeping me not dead. I got hold of the DBA catalogue and went through it like a plough, trying to match up the stock rotor dimentions (minus the riadius of course) with the magical 300mm number. Many came up that were close, such as the XR5 and a few others, but settled on the 02+ Honda Integra Type S rotors. The type R rotors were basically the same, but had 10mm increase in height, meaning I would have to offset the calliper 10mm towards the body. I was happier to not do that. Having 1mm thicker rotor was no big deal as it offset the 0.5mm increase in height. If I was to machine the rotors down to 24mm thickness, then the height would be identical. This was starting to look a little too easy. So I bought a set of Type S rotors new. I tried to get RDA ones, but they just don’t make them. So I had to bite the bullet and get DBA ones, which, even at trade price were damn pricey. Out of the box though, and I was instantly impressed by build quality and the physical size difference over stock. Next I needed to make up an adaptor, so out came my trusty saw and a piece of lovely fence paling. I made up a mock-up out of wood to test if everything would line up and fit correctly. I knocked up a basic bracket and it all seemed to line up and work nicely. After chatting to one of the guys at work, who had access to the workshop, we started to talk about the best way to go about making the brackets. We would replicate my wooden bracket making some changes to thickness, length and obviously material. I was keen to use mild steel, but his views were that it would be too heavy and would rust if left bare. He suggested aluminium just in a thicker sizing than what I wanted to use in mild steel. We went about making 2 blocks of the same size to our new dimensions. After about 6 hours of machine work, 2 hours of handwork, 30mins of sandblasting the basic brackets were completed. They looked fantastic, especially in the satin finish from the light sandblast. After all this, it was decided that some stainless steel was to be used to offset the calliper from it’s new bracket. Some rod was machined to fit in the space constraints and the centre drilled for the bolt. After about 1 ½ hours, the offsets were completed, with the ends de-burred and polished. It was all coming together. Once I got home, it was time to start bolting them to the car. This is a final trial fit on the project sedan which I know needs a new CV, etc….. Once I had them on the car, I couldn’t fit the 15” rims I had it sitting on. Luckily, I had my 16 x 7 ‘Matchbox’ rims at hand to trial fit. They only just fit over my new anchors. Having a spare 17” rim sitting there, I also fitted that up for a comparison. They fill the rim up pretty good too! Next, is working on an upgrade for the rears....
	Teh Telstar can NEVAH lose!

1-8-08, 1:17	#4 (permalink)
Stevoh Join Date: May 2003 Location: Sunnyvale CA iTrader: (0)	I third that. Nice thanks for sharing man. Looks sweet. If the bracekts are of the right price I would definitely buy a set. Now I wonder how shipping would be. Keep us updated if anything happens for the rear, the inner wheel bearing is going to be a problem. Maybe a custom/modified rotor would be best?
	Chameleon Blue 95 Probe GT MTX. Black 89 Probe GT MTX

1-8-08, 3:14	#6 (permalink)
SABBAi Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Melbourne, Australia iTrader: (1)	Thanks for the kind words and feedback. I do intend on upgrading the calipers. I have a set of the legacy calipers here and could fit them into this bracket if I wanted, but I intend on changing the bracket as well in the near future. I have been in discussion with both Dutch and Gavin over brake upgrades. Gavin's upgrade improved braking force distribution on the face of the pad which is what you are talking about.
	Teh Telstar can NEVAH lose!

1-8-08, 9:05	#10 (permalink)
STW Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Turku, Finland Age: 31 iTrader: (0)	Great job! Very nice as is and with Legacy calipers it sounds even better.
	626 '88 Wagon, turbo 2.0 DOHC My vBGarage My ride at CarDomain

1-9-08, 0:31	#12 (permalink)
Stevoh Join Date: May 2003 Location: Sunnyvale CA iTrader: (0)	That's sweet that the center bore is the same for both rotors. Also you mention that the Integra/RSX rotors are a 10mm greater height difference than stock, isn't it more like 18 mm? There is a 36mm difference between both rotors. The chart does say there is only a 1/2 inch difference, I am confused. Also does a 1mm difference in thickness make that big a difference? The caliper would not be able to fit over the Type S rotors? Good on you for getting the Legacy calipers, I was going to mention it in this post but seems you have that covered. Sweet man.
	Chameleon Blue 95 Probe GT MTX. Black 89 Probe GT MTX

1-7-08, 18:03	#2 (permalink)
Mx-6Hybrid Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: brooklyn, NY, USA Age: 19 iTrader: (0)	thatz nice, u should put that bracket into production, i would defirntly buy it

1-8-08, 3:47	#7 (permalink)
chief tool Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Sydney, Australia Age: 35 iTrader: (1)	Does look like a good idea...nice. Just out of general interest how much coin did you shell out on the type S DBA's ? Also it doesn't look like you have but did you machine the extra mm off the rotor ? I'd be thinking about halving the rotor life by machining a mm off it to begin with esp if you use metal pads like I do....I replace the rotors and the pads together..about every 20kkm One thing I have noticed tho, not all pads have the same amount of material on them when new, depending on brand you might find that some pads will fit with the wider rotor out of sheer good luck.... I noticed this when I recently tossed my old rotors for new RDAs and bought some EBC greens at the same time, they seemed to be a just that bit thinner than bendix metal king...but I didnt measure so I cant be 100% sure.

1-8-08, 7:49	#8 (permalink)
fredio54 Banned Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Auckland, New Zealand iTrader: (1)	Nice work SABBAI :-) K given One question, is it legal to have ally brackets in australia? i would expect it wouldnt be legal in nz, though, i like the idea for unsprung weight reasons, i dont like the idea from strength point of view. ally is strong per weight, per volume it is not as strong as steel without going to some fancy grade. who knows how such grades behave with heat cycles too! Thanks for posting all the data :-) Fred

1-8-08, 7:50	#9 (permalink)
fredio54 Banned Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Auckland, New Zealand iTrader: (1)	Another question, do they spec the inside diameter of the hat where it seats onto the hub? thats a factor for me :-)

1-9-08, 17:30	#14 (permalink)
SABBAi Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Melbourne, Australia iTrader: (1)	No they don't list the outside diameter either.
	Teh Telstar can NEVAH lose!

1-22-08, 0:45	#15 (permalink)
fredio54 Banned Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Auckland, New Zealand iTrader: (1)	bump with some info fresh from the certifier in the land of the long white cloud : minimum 8mm steel, 12mm aluminium so at 19mm, you piss in. i'll keep that in mind. if its legal, then theres a good chance its pretty safe ;-) i'll say it again, nice job, and good idea on the wood fitment!