Megasquirt On the F2t

[gavin]

Im not an engine guy but I have a curious and thoughtful mind. So heres what I think....

There was a time when the thought of "tuning" was an adjustable fuel pressure regulator, larger injectors and a hacked/modified chip. That was as good as it got for the average tuner/hobbyist. Engine management piggybacks were either crude and ineffective or expensive and simply the stuff of fantasy. I even recall that (for N/A cars) the trick to higher HP was to get rid of the EFI system and go to a carburated setup(!)......but that was 1999.

Today engine management is no longer the stuff of fantasy or the realm of god-on-the-mountaintop tuner shops. The technology to *accurately* control all of the parameters of an engines operation is here....NOW. There are a wide array of powerful tools(standalone systems, the advent of cheap dyno testing) on the market accessable to the average tuner for as moderate or as expensive as one dares to spend. Heres the kicker..even the most inexpensive of these items is capable of controlling an engine with a degree of accuracy never imagined even 3 years ago.

Why would one not take advantage of these tools...other than their mindset is still stuck in the past of 1999? And if it is that they are stuck in the past they will never progress past that point(Ill save my rant about the 2nd genners still buying headers based on a design from 1995).

People...the time for flintlocks and horse drawn carriages has come and gone.


Theres some intrepid Puerto Ricans who got 230hp out of an internally stock KLDE(or at least I think it was a DE). Stock injectors, cams, stock porting, maybe a ZE manifold. How did they do it? Tuning..thats it. They had an engine management unit that they were very familliar with, had very accurate controls and they tightened the screws on the stock fueling and ignition of the engine and that was the results.

Here is a stock dyno of the f2t. One of my old ones...92*F day, open hood with a fan blowing on the radiator and intercooler.



Am I to believe that there is nothing to be gained from more accurate controls of fuel, timing and ignition? Tell that to the Puerto Ricans.

Gavin (has invested in aftermarket engine management for the stock engine and stock turbo)

[compnut21]

why hello there fuel economy


i think thats a even more compelling reason to megasquirt. i wonder how much i could raise fuel economy, let alone hp with JUST a megasquirt. i think after tuning mine ill do a before and after dyno, just for [shizzle]s and giggles.

[deadmeat]

For us Miata guys, with a good, conservative tune on an NA 1.8 motor, they've freed up in the neighborhood of around 20-30hp, and from what everyone has said, the car runs like nothing else. It feels like a completely different car.

I can only imagine what it will do to an F2T...

Seriously, Megasquirt is one fun little toy to tinker with.

Don't put it off so easily...

-meaty

[fredio54]

Gavin, largely what you say is all good :-)

but 1999?? and 3 years??? no way. The processor found in current motecs was used in EMSs as early as 1999, before that the mpc555 was available and there was an open source ems based on it in 2000, either of these are superior (or equal to) to the vast majority of CPUs used in EMSs you can get from whoever.


For two examples of good oem tunes of old (that could still have more taken from them with a retune) look to the RB series engines from 1988 up, and the 4age series which were working well from the early to late 80's too. Sure, lindsays 11:1 balcktop (from 1996!) is too rich under heavy load/high revs, but it's running pump gas, and they knew that. 11:1 = rich or octane. These tunes were done like that because they needed to be (f2t inclusive) for reliability reasons and emissions reasons. Not because they didn't have the technology. The rb20de i had form 1992 was not overly rich, and ran like an absolute champ (not excessively rich), but was of course a much less stressed engine than the blacktop 4age which had to run rich to be safe.

So, maybe 10 years and 1985? :-p but otherwise fine :-)

(basically, if your car had a shltty engine management setup, blame that particular manufacturer)

Fred.

[fredio54]

Originally Posted by gavin

Gavin (has invested in aftermarket engine management for the stock engine and stock turbo)

ROFL at the web address of the place where you had your dyno ;-) "old ones" they've been at you for a while huh :-)

[fredio54]

Originally Posted by SixSick6

Bottom line is that people ahve used much larger turbo with not much more than hacks and pretty much stock setup to achieve 275-300+ hp which is more than enough to destroy one of these junky engines and transmissions to begin with.

Sorry for the delay here, I didn't see your post for some reason (or compnuts) but, you may say that about the gearboxs, and that is fine, but about the engine, it is ALL in the tune with regards how long a given engine lasts at high power. If it doesn't have inherent weaknesses (f series do not) in the bottom end, then tune is it. The poor maintenance will have killed it similarly anyway without mods.

A good tune (from ms/xyz/abc) can make 300hp on a 2.2 last forever.

they may be fairly crappy engines, but once the air is in there, the stresses are the same as on a much better engine making the same power.

[gavin]

Originally Posted by fredio54

Gavin, largely what you say is all good :-)

but 1999?? and 3 years??? no way. <snip>

Fred, thats good information, but it misses my point a bit. There was a reason I specifically left out names/faces out of that post.

The questions are...

-Do you believe that technology has come a long way in terms of inexpensive/readily accessable engine management systems?

-Do you believe that these systems when used on stock engines can realize substantial gains over stock management(specifically, in this case, the f2/f2t)?

-Do you believe the average hobbyist/backyard tuner has the ability to use those tools to their fullest?(IE: is this technology out of the understanding of the layman?)

-Do you believe there is an entrenched mentality that has people fixated on outmoted technology/ies?

Im pretty sure I know your answers on those questions, but they have nothing to do with the motorola chipset motec was using in 99 (I mean...there were Pectel/Bosch/GEMS available then as well, but I think it would be a stretch to say they were "readily accessable" to the average hobbyist)

Again..the time is now for people to kinda get with the programme. The stuff of fantasy is now very much a reality(and has been for a bit). Once it was inaccessable, expensive, not even to be thought of...but now, not so much any more.

I swear the name of the Dyno shop is just a coincidence(it is pretty funny though considering the unit I got)

Gavin

[fredio54]

If you don't wanna get picked apart, you have to be crystal clear :-) You most likely aren't used to a picking as you are one of the more respected members on here, but I'll pick anyone that is unclear whether on purpose by accident, or from ignorance. probably the middle one in your case? What you meant was "standalones are cheap now", yes, what you said was "tech has advanced, and 3 years ago you couldnt get a steady AFR like you can now", NO. anyway, since you asked... :

Originally Posted by gavin

Do you believe that technology has come a long way in terms of inexpensive/readily accessable engine management systems?

That is a loaded question. The technology has been largely static for 10+ years, the software that is available on oem cars today is new and cool, but well out of any of our reach. Is that technology now available at a lower cost to you and me? yes. they are very different questions. Like saying has the technology in a quartz watch come a long way? nope, can i buy one now for 50 cents when 20 years ago it was 50 dollars? yes.

Do you believe that these systems when used on stock engines can realize substantial gains over stock management(specifically, in this case, the f2/f2t)?

Absolutely, hence : "Gavin, largely what you say is all good :-)"

Do you believe the average hobbyist/backyard tuner has the ability to use those tools to their fullest?(IE: is this technology out of the understanding of the layman?)

Another loaded question, "to the fullest" vs "layman" the answer to that is a clear and definite NO, morons can blow their engine with a FMU or motec just the same. Can someone who isn't too short of brain cells figure out how to make a good improvement IF he puts in enough time and effort, yes. Can he take it to the "fullest" maybe. that depends on that brain cell count, and free time question.

Do you believe there is an entrenched mentality that has people fixated on outmoted technology/ies?

Yes, and it extends to everything automotive in the US of A at least. Popular culture has taught people that cast rods and pistons are normal etc. In jappa land, thats not true. you have people talking crap about jap engines all the time, does this apply to carb vs efi, yes. But to get to what you meant, yes and no :-) quite a few of them are scared of the difficulty and dodge it for that reason. it is an intimidating thing to think about and requires a "i can definitely achieve anything i try to" attitude. then again, virtually every car board has a few ms gurus on it... miata land i chocka with them. It's hard to say on the average. Certainly, in the most part, the following attitude prevails "i don't care" which is sad.

"readily accessable" to the average hobbyist

Largely/Solely thanks to MegaSquirt, yes.

Be clear and explicit and I won't feel the urge to tidy up after you. Note, same via pm as now ;-) doesn't matter to me who is or is not reading it.

Again..the time is now for people to kinda get with the programme. The stuff of fantasy is now very much a reality(and has been for a bit). Once it was inaccessable, expensive, not even to be thought of...but now, not so much any more.

All true, IF they are willing to put in the time, and some money, and many of them are simply not. Sad truth, their loss :-)

I swear the name of the Dyno shop is just a coincidence(it is pretty funny though considering the unit I got)

We have an advertising campaign in NZ that suits this situation : "Tui" = "Yeah right!"

[gavin]

Those are the exact responses I was hoping to see from you Fred. Thank you for elaborating on those topics.

Gavin

[fredio54]

lol, now i can abbreviate : tui

[Oparatior]

Good info, only reconfirms my plan of starting with a MS stand alone, and tune it as i upgrade the car.

I believe and hope that I am one of the people with enough braincells to do it right.
2 years working on Aircraft fuel systems might help me a little also.

[fredio54]

Originally Posted by Oparatior

Good info, only reconfirms my plan of starting with a MS stand alone, and tune it as i upgrade the car.

Good move in my opinion. You can always put it back to stock and put the MS in another car later...

[mazdalowandslow]

Haha well the point of the therad has strayed a bit. No i havent started a thread on the pickup yet.

[compnut21]

or use the ms in anycar you ever own.

[lundgren420]

I guess i should have started my point with the mechanical and technical ability question. The fact that you have your A&P Degree is proof that i believe you would be succesfull in your instalation. I see that the comments i made earlier may push others away from this when it would allow you to be completely flexible later down the mod road, and allow you to make adjustments with your tune as you build on your six. Thanks for the wisdom Fred.