Upgraded valve Springs? Opinions. - Page 21

**concealer404** · 12-31-11, 20:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Leev

Hell yeah! Just like the pros....

It took me a few hours, which is ridiculous I know.

BUT my 'made in america' rented valve spring compressor from chinazone fell apart after every damn spring, I had to keep reassembling it.

I doubt i'd do it any faster...

I am many things. A good wrench is not one of them.

I need to get off my ass and do this.

**Leev** · 1-2-12, 0:16

If there's one thing Id say..

And someone else brought this up, check, clean, and re-check your hlas. Make sure those babies have a fighting chance.

fp 89 lx · 1-25-12, 21:12

bumpin this [shizzle] anybody got any updates? i really like idea of ditching the hla's im wondering if there is any rockers out there that would be a better fit there is lots of sohc motors out there

**dubgtr** · 1-25-12, 21:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by fp 89 lx

bumpin this [shizzle] anybody got any updates? i really like idea of ditching the hla's im wondering if there is any rockers out there that would be a better fit there is lots of sohc motors out there

Digging through hundreds of motors to find rockets with lash adjusters that have the right lobe-valve orientation, rocker arm ratio, and center bore sounds like loads of NOT fun. I think the closest ones are the 8v ones and you can see my results a couple pages back. I bored out new 8v ones, the intake side is way off, the exhaust side isn't that bad. But side loading in the valves would probably do damage to the valve guides. I wanna try filling the hla hole with weld and tapping and drilling for the lash adjusters from the 8v.

The only one who claims to have done this successfully is ademan and there is no proof of him having done it. He says he did it and they line up perfectly, and that he "posted pictures of it before and he's not digging through his photos to find em again" however I looked at all his pictures and never saw one.

He also said at one point that he will be changing his valve cover gasket and be will take pics of it then, but that never happened.

I'm not attacking you ademan, I'm just asking for the proof that you say you have, but you have yet to produce.

**mx_masta** · 1-25-12, 22:04

I've recently just gotten my MX6 back from my parents (my Dad borrowed it for about 6 weeks while they looked for a replacement to the last car he killed)

I am working on a very simple solid lash adjuster kit that anyone would be able to implement.

I don't know why I hadn't thought of it before but I've begun modifying a set of HLA's to solid.
This will mean being able to keep the stock rockers.

I've removed the caps from the body, taken out the plunger and springs & punched out the check valves.
When the plunger is put back into the body they are about 3mm shorter in free length comared to a standard HLA.

The bore of the HLA body is 8.33mm (21/64") so I am waiting on a 8.3x1.0 mm test shim to come from a precision shim maker in Victoria.
Once I have this I'll be able to assemble my valve train and measure the valve lashes with the test shim in place to determine my required final shim thicknesses.

This part is not totally neccesary but I am also going to be running 1.5mm (0.060") valve lash caps to protect my valve stems.
Time will tell if I have enough clearance for the 1.5mm caps and 1.0mm minimum shims.
I may have to modify the plungers a little (machine flush to the bottom of the spring recess) to gain a little more clearance.

Further details will follow as they become available.

fp 89 lx · 1-25-12, 22:05

yeah i seen your pics i read the whole thread it was a great read

thanks for update masta

**dubgtr** · 1-25-12, 22:56

Wow, awesome approach mx_masta. Everyone including myself was going about the mechanical lash adjusters the over engineered way of thinking. Why not remove the plunger part of the hla and add a shim? Brilliant. I applaud your methodology. Karma/rep when its finished, most def.

And as far as the lash caps go, ferrea makes 8mm or 9mm whichever the stems are, I forget at the moment. I looked them up when I was having the rockers bored out. But ferrea def has em. Check their website for size/dimensions, then go to summit, think they have em, or jegs. One or the other.

Damn, don't know why I didn't think of that lol.

**mx_masta** · 1-25-12, 23:29

I got my 7mm lash caps off ebay, Nascar engine builders replace them every few hours of run time.

On the shim method, it's not the friendliest way to adjust lash as you have to measure the lash on each valve writing down the lash for each then disassemble, adjust the shims to suit and reassemble.
But it is the most straight forward way to implement solid lash adjusters.
No need to find appropriate rockers, ream or bronze bush them, shim them, etc.

I have a firm price of $3.30 per shim plus $11 postage so at most the swap is going to cost me $50.60 at best for 12 shims, I'll probably order 2 sets of shims though to allow for a recheck at 7500 Km, 15000 Km and then at every 30000 Km.
Lashes should settle after the first 1 or 2 checks.

**chief tool** · 1-26-12, 2:25

Yeah, thats a good find.

I'll be interested to see what effect it has on the valve timing and lift. You might need to vary the timing after youve done it to maximise the performance gain.

I would expect more lift and maybe slightly earlier cam timing running mechanicals compared with hydraulic if it compares with pushrod motors... on the other hand it might be not even noticeable too.

**mx_masta** · 1-26-12, 2:40

Nope, compared to properly functioning HLA's technically I'll be losing lift by close to the amount of lash I set.
Duration is a little harder to gauge because HLA's do have a slight delay before the check valve reacts and the lifter is becomes hard.

Either way I'll be eventually running an FE4J cam that I have in the garage so in any case I'll have plenty of area under the curve.

And comparison to a perfectly running HLA equiped engine do not apply to my engine or most other people running quite hard valve springs with high miles.
Thats because the HLA's will not function properly.
If I had a fresh engine that might be a different story but short of scoring a fresh engine from a donor car thats not going to happen.

I'm betting it's starting to sound like I'm not going to do any back to back dyno testing?
Well that may be true but I'll try and get a baseline after my next service (I'll get the HLA's working, I'll fill 'em with grease if I have to!) and before my SLA's go in.

**chief tool** · 1-26-12, 16:46

I havent done any measurements, alot of what I said I based off what my old man discovered with old holden motors (AUS GM product)
The hydraulic tappets used to reach a point as they age where the valve lift would fall away at high rpms making an effective rpm limiter.
I am not sure why this happened, maybe they leaked or the valves werent working properly. Maybe the design is different enough in the F2 ones that this does not apply.

Solid lifters in old holden motors (the old 179 ci I6) used to result in lift increases and consequently more power at high rpm, which was very noticeable..like going taking an effective gear change point from 5000rpm to 6500rpm.
His motors had high lift cams wich used to destroy the hydraulic lifters faster than the stock cams.

**mx_masta** · 1-26-12, 17:22

You may very well be right for older HLA's but technically a properly duntioning HLA is live having 0.05mm (0.002") of lash which is much less than typical for a solid.
But with age comes lower oil pressure, worn lifter check valves and therefore slower reaction and reduced lift.

My thinking is that I'll be runnning 0.2-0.25mm (0.008-0.010") hot lashes and then see if the valvetrain is noisy.

**dubgtr** · 1-26-12, 21:31

Can't you just take a measurement of the hlas fully expanded and make the shims match that measurement? Or take that measurement and subtract the height of the lash caps? If you get it going I really am interested because I need a way to make up the difference for when I get a regrind. That was some of the reason behind trying to get the 8v rockers to work, besides the whole dual valve spring being too much tension for worn out hlas thing.

**mx_masta** · 1-27-12, 2:24

Yes I could but I'd rather have the test shim in hand first at least for proof of concept.

I'd also prefer to have he test shim in place for the initial measurments to ensure accuracy, I'm aiming for lashes set at with an accuracy of 0.02mm.
It'll also to save on how many times I have to pull down and reassemble.
I should be able to easily see if I am going to need to have the plungers modified without having to pull down my valvetrain.

**mx_masta** · 5-6-12, 10:31

Just a quick update as to where this sits at the moment.

I am picking up my shims next week while I am in Melbourne.
Unfortunaely the price on them went up since January.
They are setting me back $6 each, I guess that $3.30 each was too good to be true.
Apparently he was basing that price on plain, unhardened shims whereas I want them hardened and engraved.

I'm getting them at 8.3-8.33mm diameter in 5 different thicknesses based on my measurements on each valve with the test shim.
Since I want to also run lash caps to protect my valve stem tips I did have to shorten the plunger and bodies of my lash adjusters by about 2mm.
I did this quite easily and fairly accurately with a power drill and a few sheets of wet&dry abrasive paper.

Please note that for anyone not wanting to run lash caps shortening the plunger and body should not be neccesary.
Just disassemble 12 HLA's,
Reassemble the plungers into the bodies,
Reassemble the now SLA's back into the rocker arms,
Reassemble rocker shaft to head,
Measure valve lashes, (all should come out at more than 1.1mm otherwise you will have to shorten the plungers a little)
Order shims to suit require valve lashes from PRECISION SHIMS AUSTRALIA | INLET SHIMS | EXHAUST SHIMS | VALVE SHIMS or your preferred local supplier.
Wait 2 weeks for shims to arrive and insert shims to SLA'a.

I have written an Excel worksheet for recording and tracking the measurements.
It even takes into account the 5° angle between the valve and SLA centrelines.
I'm aiming for cold lashes of .1mm (0.004")intake and 1.3mm (0.005') exhaust, once I have this going I'll see what the hot lashes are and adjust my cold settings if required.

Note: for anyone considering this, once you have measured your clearances you must keep each SLA body and plunger with it's rocker.
I found that depending on brand HLA plungers can vary in length by up to 0.25mm.