Upgraded valve Springs? Opinions.

**mx_masta** · 3-28-10, 6:53

Well I have an extra week off over Easter and I am hoping to convert to solid lash adjusters.
You can flame me for this if you want but it is an easy choice for me $60 bucks to convert to solids or $2000 bucks to have my engine rebuilt to make the damn HLA's work.
And yes the oil is changed regularly and I have cleaned the rockers and HLA's and replaced ones that compress even minutely by hand.

These are the lash adjusters I will be using.

VW ROCKER SLICK FOOT SWIVEL BALL ADJUSTING SCREWS EMPI : eBay Motors (item 390166108062 end time Apr-04-10 15:49:45 PDT)

They are a quality item used primarily on VW's some sporting high lift .440" commonly.
They have an M8x1.0P thread which I hope to be getting inserts machined for this week at work.

And if the guy on TX5club in NZ ever replies to my PM.
I am also looking at upgrading to the FE4J cam out of a FE 2.0L 12V engine to regain and exceed the loss of duration from going solids.
Yes I know I will be losing a little lift but I dont think .002" of lash is going to matter too much when I am gaining about 11° of open duration and a heap of area under the curve.

So my question is this; If I take the opportunity to upgrade valve springs at the same time I would have 2 choices.
1 - a single spring with a seat pressure of about 50 lb and an open pressure of about 120 lb
2 - a double spring (same outer spring as the single above) with a seat pressure of about 95 lb and an open pressure of about 244 lb.

Now obviously option 1 is easier because I would not have to machine the retainers but would the pressure be enough?
Remember that the standard valve springs in a F2/F2T have almost no seat pressure, in fact if there were no shims then the springs would actually be loose.

Well what do you more experienced guys think?

**ls six** · 3-28-10, 10:05

Nice find with the VW parts! I have seen this done before with just standard bolt and lash cap.

I would see what you can do with added shims before bind becomes an issue, take your compressed height and the height of the spring compressed to the point of bind ( A vise or something similar) and the difference minus a margin of safety is the amount of shimming you have to play with.

I believe there are other springs that can be used in the 12V motor but I dont recal the make or model of the donors. If you can aviod machining the retainers you'll save money there and avoid any potential failures as a result of the machine work.

New springs are a good idea no matter what route you chose, even if you just use stock replacement springs.

**mx_masta** · 3-28-10, 10:18

Yeah the springs I have narrowed it down to should be a straight fit.

They have a free length of 2.280" and a spring rate of 185 for the single and 344 for the double.

My estimates on seat and fully open pressure are based on the assumtion that the spring rate qouted is lb/in.

And on rounding the installed height in my engine to 2"

I have thought about the use of shims but it doesn't change much a even a 1/8" shim would give me about 25 lb more pressure.

It's easy enough to find uprated springs, make and model don't really matter just pick them from a spring list.
I def' wont be using stock replacment springs, a valve spring should have a bit more preload on it that the thickness of a shim!

**mx_masta** · 3-28-10, 10:25

PS, thank Gavin for the title update!

**gavin** · 3-28-10, 12:41

No problem.

Gavin

**chief tool** · 3-28-10, 13:33

Interesting, post up some pics of the installation of the solids....

I have never been a fan or HLAs....and I dont mind cracking the valve cover off every now and then to adjust the clearances.

**mx_masta** · 3-29-10, 5:57

Same here, why some whinge about getting the feeler gauges out once or twice a year beats me.

So no other opinions people?

If not then I think I will be going with the singles for ease of installation.
I might also look at getting a 3-4mm shim cut at work, I just need to disassemble a valve assembly from my junk head to get a stock shim to base it off.

**SABBAi** · 3-29-10, 17:15

I recall someone looking into complete F8 rockers, but they weren't used. There were a heap of photos somewhere too. I don't recall the reason why they weren't used.

Also keep in mind that cam profile for hydraulic lifters is more agressive in the open/close rate to compensate for the squish of the lifter. In my old Subaru, I fitted rockers with lash adjusters into an engine that had a hydraulic cam. This alone made the car feel much more powerful (Dyno plots weren't the internet catch cry back then).

If it were me, I would go for the double valve springs, only cause it's something to put int my signature yo...... ah, I mean, because of the effort of machining up rockers to suit lash adjusters, you might as well fit the doubles as down the track you might want ot go for a cam with more duration and lift. You are obviously trying to widen the power/trorque curve(s), whilst trying to reduce the chances that you will get valve float, etc with the new cam profile.

To be honest I don't think that the FE4J willl make a huge difference, but it is a step in the right direction. it has slightly longer duration but the lift is still the same. There is also a 1 degree seperation in lobe angle. The 2ltr 12valves seem to be fine with 12valve valve springs and FE4J cam (assuming they are the same spring rate).

To make the most out of the work you have planned, I would be looking at a cam that had greater duration and greater lift.

**mx_masta** · 3-30-10, 7:43

I see what you are say there SABBai and appreciate the input.
But I really don't think I will be going with the doubles.

For the exact reason you gave for why you would. Machining.

There is only so much I can get at work before they will start to get annoyed about it. Not that they would do anything about it, but I'd rather not put up with their whinging, I hear enough of that allready.
And I really don't have the time to research possible alternative retainers that way work with the valve stems, keepers and springs.

At least with the singles all I need made is 12 of the tapped inserts and maybe some 3-4mm shims (Though I'd probably go without for now and see for it fares over 1000km)
And the rockers don't really need machining as such, the inserts will be a light interference fit into the existing HLA hole.
The oil reservoir hump above the HLA hole will need to be ground off (easily enough done with a bench grinder or even a belt sander)

The last procedure will be to make sure that the new swivel foot lash screws are still going to get oil to lubricate the ball.

All in all, as long as I have access to a spare car for a couple of days then it's mostly going to be a bolt in affair.
Whereas If I were waiting for machining of retainers by a small machine shop then this could drag on for ages.

**mx_masta** · 3-30-10, 7:51

Oh and I don't think I will be going with a bigger cam than the FE4J.

I really don't rate any of the existing regrinds available for our engines.
Because they are all based on the rediculously restrictive stock cam, which not only has very little duration & not much lift.
But it also has a very peaky profile with not much area under the profile.
I have not seen any of the regrind cam dyno's posted on here that really make a convincing case.
Sure peak HP and torque is shifted about 150-200 rpm higher. But then it still falls flat on it's face after that.
The only exception may be the Colt tri-flo which I haven't seen a comparison dyno plot for.

Whereas the FE4J cam has more duration and much more are under the profile while still having a stockish profile for a 2.0L N/A.
It should be just the thing for waking up the F2T.
It would be nice to have a little extra lift but that then requires even harder springs which will cause even more wear on the cam followers.

**SABBAi** · 3-30-10, 17:50

Fair points. Iwould be interested in seeing how your rocker inserts turn out. If you are happy with the way they have turnout, I may ask for a drawing or two so I can get some made up also. If that is ok with you

I have been doing a bit of research into some cams and have found a few shops that are willing to do 'custom regrinds' to suit different applications. I'll be looking into long duration with a rounder profile. The think about all the available regrinds is that most of them have been made for the N/A's or turbo engines with the stock turbo.

**mx_masta** · 3-30-10, 18:16

I'll definitely be taking a fair few photo's to record the process.

And you are welcome to a drawing once I have the inserts and cleck out the amount of interference I have specified which is .01-.02mm (.0004-.0008")

We usually work on .001" interference per 1" of diameter so I am thinking I might change my specification to .02 -.03mm interference which will be a tighter fit but should still be doable with freezing the inserts before hand and a bench wice with soft jaws to press them in.

It would be interesting to see what could be done as far as regrinds go staring with the FE4J cam.
Since it already has the rounder profile and longer duration in theory all you would have to get done is have the base circle diameter reduced to increase lift and get even more duration.

P.S I am still considering which springs to go with the best option as far as seat and open pressures so far is double from CROW CAMS part # 5840 which would be about 75 lb seat and about 173 lb open pressures (not including any additional shims).
Once I have one of the spring assemblies on my junk head disassembled. I'll figure out what machining might need to be done and decide which way I am going.
Seeing as how I have a set of 8 of these springs from my old Bluebird sitting in the garage.

**ls six** · 3-30-10, 20:43

The regrinds we are familiar with just involve reducing the base circle then reshaping the lobes.

Another alternative than nearly any cam grinder should be able to do is to build up the cams through welding. That allows nearly un limited lobe profiles.

It's much more expensive though as there is a LOT more labor involved and many more steps than just building up the metal and grinding in a profile.

**mx_masta** · 4-1-10, 12:02

Well we'm damn excited.

It turns out that the springs I am considering are a straight fit - machining of the retainers will not be required.

To repeat and confirm part numbers, they are CROW CAMS part# 5840.
They are a replacment upgrade spring to suit a L series OHC 4CYL DATSUN / NISSAN engines.
There should be similar springs to suit these engines available from a few different manufacturers.

For the specs on these spring see this link; http://www.crowcams.com.au/media/cat...PRING%20OD.pdf

Here is a comparison picture of the CROW springs versus a stock one off my junk head, along with a stock retainer.

Theye are both very close in free length and outside diameter.
Though the stock spring has a slightly smaller inside diameter than the primary of the CROW springs.

Heres a picture of the secondary of the CROW springs sitting on the retainer.

And here one of both of the CROW springs sitting on the retainer.

Both springs seat well with only slightly more wiggle room on the retainer than stock.

I have compressed the CROW springs by hand down to the stock installed height and there is a definite difference in pressure compared to the stock spring.
I don't have a strain gauge to test but I would estimate about 25-50% higher seat pressure.
Which roughly confirms my calculations posted previously.

About the only thing I need to get these springs into a F2T head is new spring seats to protect the raised face around which the stock springs usually sit.
It's not absolutely necessary, going without them would just cause some galling (chatter wear) on that face, but I might as well do it right.
I'm thinking that seats from an 8 valve Mazda F series (which came standard with double springs) might just do the trick!

chace10 · 4-3-10, 3:18

I have some beehives from old Dodge product.