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Old 1-7-13, 20:31   #16 (permalink)
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It appears that Nissan would not agree what with it's use of individual throttles on the R32-R34 GTR.

Sure, it means that you cannot use vacuum as a reference for idle and cruise mapping but that is easily dealt with by an experienced tuner.

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Old 1-7-13, 20:37   #17 (permalink)
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Any other non-ITB suggestions out there?

Jeff ~ 1995 PGT ZE-T MSnS-E v3 (317whp @ 8.5psi / 275whp @ 5.5psi)
PARTING A LOT OF 2g and 1g STUFF
FS: Borla for sale.
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Old 1-8-13, 18:22   #18 (permalink)

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Quote:
Originally Posted by mx_masta View Post
It appears that Nissan would not agree what with it's use of individual throttles on the R32-R34 GTR.

Sure, it means that you cannot use vacuum as a reference for idle and cruise mapping but that is easily dealt with by an experienced tuner.
Its all fine and good that nissan (with its phalanx of engineers and money) wanted to show off their engineering chops by going all out with an everybitoftechnology-in-one manifold, but for the rest of us down in the trenches WITHOUT such resources....a lot of that whiz bang stuff is still....overly complex, difficult to tune...oh yeah, and heavy

Anyway, just wondering if Scott found something worthwhile to exploit in this type of manifold that was worth the added complications that it brings

Gavin
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Old 1-8-13, 23:53   #19 (permalink)

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Just lost all I typed. Will update again shortly.

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Old 1-9-13, 9:34   #20 (permalink)

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Quote:
Originally Posted by gavin View Post
Scott....is there a particular reason you went with that manifold? I had been asked about going in that direction (turbo manifold with individual throttle bodies) and, while technologically impressive....decided that it was too overly complex, difficult to tune and heavy for what it ultimately needed to achieve comparative to other designs. Have you found an advantage to exploit with that style of manifold?

Gavin
Hi Gavin,

First up, apologies for the lengthy reply. If it needs to be moved from this thread, then please do so.

I chose this manifold for a few reasons.

Now I'm not a fluid dynamic specialist, but I have a very basic grasp of basic air flow characteristics from back at uni.

The plenum is designed to give even flow to each runner. It's not all that visible in the pic, but the plenum itself is actually angled towards the last cylinder. The taper of the plenum with the angle of the POE (point of entry), is such that it doesn't favour any particular runner. The radius of the plenum profile in the base of the plenum is such that it should eliminate or significantly reduce low pressure turbulence caused by sharp edged corners. This reduces low pressure turbulence under the POE.




Each runner is curved towards the POE. The runner closest to the POE has a greater curve than the last runner. Each runner also has a nicely radius-ed entry with a tapered out leading edge. This reduces low pressure turbulence around the entrance of each runner.

The throttle plates are of significant sizing in comparison to the standard TB. 40mm per runner in comparison to 40mm and 46mm. Each 40mm plate has a surface area of 1256mm2 (3.14 x [20 x 20]). This multiplied by 4 gives us a total plate area of 5024mm2 or that equivalent to an 80mm TB. The standard TB gives us a combined surface area of 2917mm2. This does not take into account for TB shaft diameters. The quad throttle bodies run a 10mm TB shaft.

Every body is aware of the high torque (at low rpm) nature of our engines. There is a lot of discussion that the head and the long stroke is the cause for this. However, long (380mm stock) and narrow (30mm - [I will need to confirm this]) gives high torque lower in the rev range. My idea with going for ITBS and shorter (200mm) and larger diameter (40mm tapered) runners is to try to increase the gas velocity above 3500rpm to shift the torque curve higher in the rev range.

Having ITBS should give better throttle response in comparison to a single 80mm TB as each cylinder will receive the same amount of air once the throttle is cracked. I'm also not concerned about significant loss of torque/power in the lower end of the rev range, as I have got some counter measures for low end power. This is another topic for discussion, but it has to do with cam selection (and operation), head work and turbo selection.

There are things about the manifold that I am not happy with. POE diameter and port angle post throttle plate. The entry is 2.75". I am wanting to run 3" intercooler piping so this will need to be changed to 3". The port angles post plate should be rectified by doing a cut and shut between the ITBS and an F2 head flange. Going by measurements, I should be able to get a pretty straight port once completed.

I understand the concerns in regards to tuning, but this is not really an issue. The standard RNN14 manifold has individual vacuum ports on each runner. These are connected to a common vacuum chamber to which all vacuum/boost lines can be tapped. A MAP sensor will be used along with a TPS. This will give me enough control over idle and light throttle tuning. Having this common chamber effectively makes tuning the same as it would be with a traditional manifold.

As I'm not building the car for a specific class rule, or have a very low target weight, I am not that concerned over the weight of the manifold. The car will have a complete interior and I am considering reinstalling a/c. however I'm hoping the weight will be comparable to standard manifold.

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Old 1-10-13, 20:02   #21 (permalink)
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Does anyone have access to a Nissan I4 intake manifold to take some measurements of? KA24, SR20 and CA18 would probably be the easiest to purchase.

Jeff ~ 1995 PGT ZE-T MSnS-E v3 (317whp @ 8.5psi / 275whp @ 5.5psi)
PARTING A LOT OF 2g and 1g STUFF
FS: Borla for sale.
FS: Clear headlight covers, headlight, fog, tail, gauge cluster
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Old 1-10-13, 20:41   #22 (permalink)
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KA24 would be worth poking at. As it is so similar to the F2t right off the bat. My friend scott just bolted up one of there exhaust manifolds. the ports line up, and the bottom 4 bolts bolt right up. We knew the ports worked from a past member. But i was totally in shock when i saw the damn thing half way bolted up even.

~Patrick~

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Old 1-10-13, 20:46   #23 (permalink)

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Quote:
Originally Posted by SABBAi View Post
First up, apologies for the lengthy reply. If it needs to be moved from this thread, then please do so.
Ha!...have you seen my responses ? We dont really have a dedicated intake manifold discussion/theory thread, so this is as good a place as any I suppose

(though it would be a lot easier to find if the damn search worked..grrr....but I digress)

Quote:
Originally Posted by SABBAi View Post
I chose this manifold for a few reasons.

The throttle plates are of significant sizing in comparison to the standard TB. 40mm per runner in comparison to 40mm and 46mm. Each 40mm plate has a surface area of 1256mm2 (3.14 x [20 x 20]). This multiplied by 4 gives us a total plate area of 5024mm2 or that equivalent to an 80mm TB. The standard TB gives us a combined surface area of 2917mm2. This does not take into account for TB shaft diameters. The quad throttle bodies run a 10mm TB shaft.
The percentages actually get a bit worse when you take the throttle body shafts into consideration...TB shaft area is (40mmx10mm) + (46mmx10mm) = 860mm2...so 2917mm2 - 860mm2 = 2057mm2....so yeah :/ .

Quote:
Originally Posted by SABBAi View Post
Every body is aware of the high torque (at low rpm) nature of our engines. There is a lot of discussion that the head and the long stroke is the cause for this. However, long (380mm stock) and narrow (30mm - [I will need to confirm this]) gives high torque lower in the rev range. My idea with going for ITBS and shorter (200mm) and larger diameter (40mm tapered) runners is to try to increase the gas velocity above 3500rpm to shift the torque curve higher in the rev range.
This is more or less the same set of conclusions that I gathered of the stock system. I used that understanding to develop the performance and design characteristics of the sheet metal intake I created for the autocross car (IE: having inherent designs that enable a "surplus" of available torque, this frees the design of an aftermarket performance intake from concerns of torque and focus only on high end gains)


Quote:
Originally Posted by SABBAi View Post
Having ITBS should give better throttle response in comparison to a single 80mm TB as each cylinder will receive the same amount of air once the throttle is cracked. I'm also not concerned about significant loss of torque/power in the lower end of the rev range, as I have got some counter measures for low end power. This is another topic for discussion, but it has to do with cam selection (and operation), head work and turbo selection.
I understand the improvements that ITBs can bring. I am not fully convinced that their potential is as great (comparative to their complexity) in a tubocharged application.....it sure looks cool though

To that end, sometimes you have to have "engineering exercises"....the measure of success then is no longer "should it be done?" (functionality, applicable for the purpose, etc), it becomes "can it be done?"(regardless of sensibility for the application).......kinda like the dual plenum manifold I made for the autocross car. (for an expected power output of only 200hp? waaaay overkill for the application...but what the hell).

Gavin
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Old 1-10-13, 20:58   #24 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by monoxidechild View Post
KA24 would be worth poking at. As it is so similar to the F2t right off the bat. My friend scott just bolted up one of there exhaust manifolds. the ports line up, and the bottom 4 bolts bolt right up. We knew the ports worked from a past member. But i was totally in shock when i saw the damn thing half way bolted up even.
Do they have a KA24 intake manifold kicking around to try out as well?

If the exhaust manifold nearly bolts up like you said, that may open us up to aftermarket exhaust manifolds as well.

Jeff ~ 1995 PGT ZE-T MSnS-E v3 (317whp @ 8.5psi / 275whp @ 5.5psi)
PARTING A LOT OF 2g and 1g STUFF
FS: Borla for sale.
FS: Clear headlight covers, headlight, fog, tail, gauge cluster
90 PGT MTX with 97k original miles!
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Old 1-10-13, 21:48   #25 (permalink)
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Thats why i told him to go this route. Still trying to find a local shop to cut us a F2 header flange though. Plan to just cut off the original flange.




Thats the only nissan part he would have laying around as it was bought for this build. But i do have another friend whose daily driver is a turbo SOHC 240sx. I bet he might have a spare mani laying around i could poke at. Anything in particular you want me to look at beyond ports lining up?

~Patrick~

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Old 1-10-13, 23:16   #26 (permalink)

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fastest95PGT View Post
Does anyone have access to a Nissan I4 intake manifold to take some measurements of? KA24, SR20 and CA18 would probably be the easiest to purchase.
There was a guy who posted an image of an SR20 manifold on an F2 head. Same flange as the RNN14 as they're both SR20's. S13/14/15 all RWD config, U13/RNN14 are FWD. They're not a very close match...

Quote:
Originally Posted by monoxidechild View Post
KA24 would be worth poking at. As it is so similar to the F2t right off the bat. My friend scott just bolted up one of there exhaust manifolds. the ports line up, and the bottom 4 bolts bolt right up. We knew the ports worked from a past member. But i was totally in shock when i saw the damn thing half way bolted up even.

Quote:
Originally Posted by monoxidechild View Post
Thats why i told him to go this route. Still trying to find a local shop to cut us a F2 header flange though. Plan to just cut off the original flange.


I've looked at them numerous times thinking they'd just need a head flange change. Interesting that the bottom bolts match up. I'd be interested to see the exhaust gasket laid over the top of the flange if possible.

Quote:
Originally Posted by gavin View Post
The percentages actually get a bit worse when you take the throttle body shafts into consideration...TB shaft area is (40mmx10mm) + (46mmx10mm) = 860mm2...so 2917mm2 - 860mm2 = 2057mm2....so yeah :/ .
To add to my throttle size calculations, the surface area on the quads is not that great when you consider TB shaft area (40mm x 10mm) x4 = 1600mm2. So 5024mm2 - 1600mm2 = 3424mm.

If we compare that to the 80mm...

(3.14 (40mm x 40mm) = 5024mm2
TB shaft area (80mm x 10mm) = 800mm2

5024mm2 - 800mm2 = 4224mm2


So realistically, 40mm ITBS are a closer match to a 75mm TB.

(3.14 (37.5mm x 37.5mm) = 4415.6mm2
TB shaft area (75mm x 10mm) = 750mm2

4415.6mm2 - 750mm2 = 3665.6mm2

Quads 3424mm2
75mm TB 3665.6mm2


Quote:
Originally Posted by gavin View Post
I understand the improvements that ITBs can bring. I am not fully convinced that their potential is as great (comparative to their complexity) in a tubocharged application.....it sure looks cool though

To that end, sometimes you have to have "engineering exercises"....the measure of success then is no longer "should it be done?" (functionality, applicable for the purpose, etc), it becomes "can it be done?"(regardless of sensibility for the application).......kinda like the dual plenum manifold I made for the autocross car. (for an expected power output of only 200hp? waaaay overkill for the application...but what the hell).

Gavin
Are you expecting 200hp atw or atf?


There is still some more lateral thinking to be done in regards to fitting them in the engine bay due them mounting square to the head and having the brake master and booster on the correct hand side of the car. I may have to angle them upwards or change the booster. The booster would seem the more diifficult, but I have a solution already for that. Why do things the easy way??

I also hadn't seen an F2 with ITBS, so I thought I should have a crack. So I guess it is an Engineering exercise to see if it could be done and to see if my theory/train of thought/imagination.. works.

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Old 1-11-13, 3:31   #27 (permalink)

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Quote:
Originally Posted by SABBAi View Post
Are you expecting 200hp atw or atf?


There is still some more lateral thinking to be done in regards to fitting them in the engine bay due them mounting square to the head and having the brake master and booster on the correct hand side of the car. I may have to angle them upwards or change the booster. The booster would seem the more diifficult, but I have a solution already for that. Why do things the easy way??

I also hadn't seen an F2 with ITBS, so I thought I should have a crack. So I guess it is an Engineering exercise to see if it could be done and to see if my theory/train of thought/imagination.. works.
I am targeting 200hp at the wheels. The plan is to minimize the torque gains as much as possible. I need scoot, not tire smoke.

Good luck on retrofitting the nissan manifold. Sometimes to find out what works, you have to risk finding out what doesnt work.

Gavin
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Old 1-11-13, 8:33   #28 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SABBAi View Post
I've looked at them numerous times thinking they'd just need a head flange change. Interesting that the bottom bolts match up. I'd be interested to see the exhaust gasket laid over the top of the flange if possible.
It would need more then that to be used on our car. Theres no way a wastegate would clear our radiator. It just isnt an issue on a MX3 since the radiator is moved much further forward.

When you hold the stock OEM F2T metal gasket over the KA24 manifold ports, the 4 ports are dead nuts perfect.

~Patrick~

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Old 1-11-13, 20:13   #29 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by monoxidechild View Post
Thats why i told him to go this route. Still trying to find a local shop to cut us a F2 header flange though. Plan to just cut off the original flange.

http://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphoto...01919823_n.jpg

Thats the only nissan part he would have laying around as it was bought for this build. But i do have another friend whose daily driver is a turbo SOHC 240sx. I bet he might have a spare mani laying around i could poke at. Anything in particular you want me to look at beyond ports lining up?
I guess the best thing to do is similar to the exhaust confirmation using a gasket. Could you use a F2T intake manifold gasket with the Nissan intake manifold you feel is closest to match?

Jeff ~ 1995 PGT ZE-T MSnS-E v3 (317whp @ 8.5psi / 275whp @ 5.5psi)
PARTING A LOT OF 2g and 1g STUFF
FS: Borla for sale.
FS: Clear headlight covers, headlight, fog, tail, gauge cluster
90 PGT MTX with 97k original miles!
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Old 1-22-13, 6:56   #30 (permalink)
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Have you been able to make any progress on this monoxide?

Jeff ~ 1995 PGT ZE-T MSnS-E v3 (317whp @ 8.5psi / 275whp @ 5.5psi)
PARTING A LOT OF 2g and 1g STUFF
FS: Borla for sale.
FS: Clear headlight covers, headlight, fog, tail, gauge cluster
90 PGT MTX with 97k original miles!
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