Air pressured water/meth injection set-up. - Mazda MX-6 Forum
 
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Air pressured water/meth injection set-up.

I have looked in to all kinds of water, water/meth, meth injection kits and set-ups. From vacuum fed 3L bottles using a syringe needle, turbo boost pressurized set-ups, all forms of pump systems.
A couple weeks ago I was talking to a guy, running 7lbs boost on an old corola he was thinking of water injection and looking for a cheap way to do it, I told him about the trubo boost fed system but hes running nowhere near the required boost, I suggested a tire fill tank with 125psi in it feeding 25psi to the system...
A few days ago there was a spot sprayer on sale and it got me thinking... I searched the stores site for larger ones, and came across this:

15 Gallons, 2.2gpm everflow pump, 70psi max. 180$
almost everything needed, could use the wand tip as a nozzle.
But the pressure is a bit low the tank is too big, the price is high...
I kept searching, the closest I have found to my Idea is a guy running a water air bladder, 1gallon air 100psi, 1 gallon water, as the liquid drops so does the pressure ...
I had searched for quality tire pumps/compressors some time ago, some 12v pumps put out pretty good CFM and can even run small power tools (permanent install kits for off road vehicles)....
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What I was thinking of was using a pump/compressor and small air tank to pressurize a water/meth tank enough for proper operation with even flow.
The set-up would require:
__________________________________________
2X toggle switches.
compressor motor control switch.
12 volt car compressor.
2 liter air tank.
12 to 16 liter fluid tank (good for 130psi).
2 or 3X one way check valves.
3X hobbs style pressure switch's.
Fluid tank level float / sensor.
1 Nos style purge solenoid valve.
1 12V normally closed 2way solenoid valve.
0-150 psi liquid gauge.
1 LED or other type dash light.
Desired water/Meth nozzles/jets.
Air hose and fittings.
Water/meth lines, T's and fittings.
1 Factory F2T turbo solenoid with extra spring.
wiring and inline fuses.
__________________________________________

The set-up would be:

-Body ground running to Dash toggle switch.

-Compressor switch set to go on at 90psi and off 120psi sending voltage to a medium quality 12V air compressor (fuzed 12v, ground from toggle switch ).

-The air compressor hose (tire pump) has a check valve (one way valve) in it then it passes through the compressor switch and into the top of the stable pressure air tank .

-The fluid tank has a windshield wiper level sender (or a tank level sensor) in it modified to cut signal when engaged (low level)(probably no continuity until low from factory) , the ground from the toggle switch passes through this level switch and goes to a pressure switch (hobbs style) set to 85 or 90 psi that's fitted to the top of the tank - So if fluid levels fall below X level then the ground going to the pressure switch is cut, if the tank pressure is below 85 or 90psi then the ground signal passing through it gets cut.

-The ground signal from the tank pressure switch goes to another pressure switch, this one gets it's signal from engine boost pressure and is set to activate meth injection at desired boost (16psi).

-The ground leaves the 16psi pressure switch and connects to an in dash indicator bulb and a two way solenoid valve (open/close, normally closed) that activates water meth delivery when the pressure switch gets 16psi boost.

-The pressurized hose leaving the tank T's to a liquid pressure gauge in dash and continues to the two way 12V solenoid valve (normally closed).

-From the solenoid valve the hose goes to the injector jets .

-A factory turbo solenoid valve (code 42) is run inline before the boost controller, the adjustment screw is set to bleed the desired boost (4lbs) out the smaller fitting when 12v is applied.
[(How the solenoid works is with a 12V signal the valves bleeds of air allowing the factory 8lbs boost, if knock is detected or at low and high RPM signal is cut and so is boost.)
So if you have a bleed style boost controller T'd off the wastegate line set the 17psi and T in the factory turbo solenoid before the boost controller, without 12v = straight through, with 12v it bleeds the screw set amount say 4psi and boost would be 21 lbs.*]
The factory turbo solenoid is grounded from the tanks pressure switch (85 or 90psi) so if the tank level is low or the tank pressure is below 85 or 90 psi then boost doesn't increase for meth injection and the engine doesn't blow up.

-On the top of the tank there is another hobbs style pressure switch, it's grounded to frame and sends it's signal to a solenoid purge valve, the purge valve is connected to a fused 12V source and can receive constant 12V+, the ground side comes from the 2nd tank switch and a grounded toggle or momentum switch in dash. The tank pressure switch is set 3 psi above the compressor switch's high pressure setting. There is a small purge hose running from the top of the Meth tank with a 1way check valve to the solenoid purge valve and continuous to a discharge hose running out to the back loovers for the sunroof water drain.
So when tank pressure rises 3psi above set max 120psi, the pressure switch on the tank activates the purge solenoid and vents the extra pressure out to atmosphere with or without the key on. With the water/meth system Toggle switch OFF, activate the purge toggle/momentum switch to drain the tank and system pressure.



--------------
The pressure gauge could be run from the air pressure tank as a pressure gauge, to avoid running liquid to a gauge, but it's already passing through the interior from the trunk to the engine bay (somewhere).

Possibly a one way check valve after the pump.

The pressure settings are all adjustable, min/max tank air pressure, tank purge pressure, injection on boost level, extra boost for meth on and amount (how many more psi), off meth boost level.

The compressor switch air in/out in line between the air tank and fluid tank with a 1way check valve after the switch.

The compressors I looked into on average run between 15 and 45amps, they have max run times of 10 to 40 minutes, weight between 9lbs and 19lbs.
-2200 Cubic inch minute =1.27 CFM
-2440 CIM=1.41 CFM
-3500 CIM=2.02 CFM
-5500 CIM=3.18 CFM

These type of 12V automotive compressors all have quick connects at the compressor and come with 16 feet of air line and tire filler attachments so the pump can also be used to fill tires, you just need a tire plug kit for flats.

*The factory turbo solenoid spring is good up to about 14psi above that it will hold shut until it gets a signal source but won't shut against pressures above 14psi (can't remember if it's 12v bleed opened or 12v bleed closed at the moment)
It's a simple magnetic solenoid that block a bleed hole adjusted with a screw thats locked with a nut. Inside the metal cup that the magnet move there is a tiny spring that holds it against the pressure flow, you need to add a second solenoid spring or use a stiffer one that fits, 2 factory springs will hold and close at 24 lbs without fail.
These turbo solenoids also make great two stage boost controller .
In the sketch it's labelled E that's hard to read, before it is a "circled thing" it's T'd from the wastegate boost source (for me before the TB from the charge pipe) after the bleed style boost controller the "circled thing) is (in my case a return line going back into the air intake pipe between the VAF/AFM and turbo.
What I mean by bleed style boost controller is the wastegate line gets T'd to it and you simply open it to bleed off the amount off extra boost you want over the wastegate actuators activation boost, so with a 12lbs wastegate the bleed style boost controller bleed off 4 psi to run 16lbs boost, instead of spring and bead style boost controllers or 3 way bleed off controllers that sit between the boost source and waste gate.

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Last edited by Mazda Carnage; 5-19-16 at 11:00.
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post #2 of 7 (permalink) Old 5-19-16, 1:26
 
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Honestly, this seems like an awful lot of work to reinvent the wheel. A cheapo W/M setup is only $250. I can't imagine building a setup like this would be worth it for the amount of effort.
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post #3 of 7 (permalink) Old 5-19-16, 15:05 Thread Starter
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thzpcs View Post
Honestly, this seems like an awful lot of work to reinvent the wheel. A cheapo W/M setup is only $250. I can't imagine building a setup like this would be worth it for the amount of effort.
Well I don't quite see it that way, when you say cheapo, is that 250$ US, plus shipping and customs, say that came to 325$ US, that's 425$ Canadian and what do I get- A cheapo water meth kit.

And just like the Aquamist/hydramist kit I bought used (no tank, hoses or nozzles) for 350$ it will run an unreliable failure prone pump. The Hydramist does have a few fail safes, but unless you run a boost control/reduction off the mainboard then the kit just shuts down costing you your engine.

(The hydramist kit runs a sureflow pump that is know to over heat after 10minutes run time, I built a small air duct and 12v fan into the trunk to help cool the pump, but when it goes, like they all do it will cost 150$ to replace.)

So I could build my own pump driven kit, using most of the stuff I would use in an air pressured kit but the first thing required would be the costly pump.
My pressure fed kit would be more reliable with the right air pump, there are permanent mount off road air pumps and pumps for air ride suspension that have up to 40minute on cycles.
This set-up would be easy on the pump (provided it is rated for high pressure) even if I set the start stop pressure high for the pump (115-125psi) once the set-up is pressurized unlike the inline pump set-ups the pump doesn't have to run the whole time the system is in use. And if you think about the delivery say I run 500cc's of water/meth at WOT, that's 500cc/min or 500 milliliter per minute (about 30ml to 1 ounce) so 16.9 ounces/0.13gallons per minute of space in the tank for the pump to fill with air.

If I spend 100$ dollars on the air pump it still costs less than a water/meth pump and it pays for itself because it serves as a quality permanent mount tire pump, I go through about 3 cheap (30$) cigarette lighter tire pumps every year, mostly in the winter. I had plans to install a good tire pump in my MX6 just for tires, a tire plug kit and pump are better then a spare, jack and tire Iron. (Usually people run over something, get a flat, jack the car and put on the spare, take the tire to the garage pay 10$ + for a plug and jack and reinstall the tire, tire plug kits are 10$).

This would be the perfect tank to use for a pressurized kit:


The tank is 2.5 gallons, not sure if that's liquid space or total space? I would prefer a 15-20 Liter (4-5 gallon) tank. 2.5G = 9.46 Liters @ 500ml/min = 19minutes of water-meth injection at WOT to about 48 minutes of Gas at WOT on a full tank of fuel, some might argue that "your not at wot all the time" and I guess they are right but I try really hard to be, at least until the brakes fade.

Unfortunately they got rid of a bunch of perfect aluminum lab tanks in one of the buildings I work in months ago, but I will come across something to use as a tank soon.

I am more excited about this set-ups reliability and fail safes than the Hydramist DD3 V8 kit I have. I have high pressure quick connect couplers, brass double swage fitting, gauges, Toggles, 100+ feet of hard plastic high pressure tubing and hundreds of fog jets from a high pressure chemical scrub system I demoed I will try some at different pressure rates to see how they mist, if it looks good I will measure the CCflow/min (or 15seconds) and run the appropriate # of Jets. Just need to buy an air pump, solenoid valves and pressure switches.

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Some updates on the air pressured water/meth injection set-up.

This is the car it will go on:
http://www.mx6.com/forums/1g-mx6-oth...0-upgrade.html (1988 626 GT 100$ upgrade.)

The reason I want it to be cheap is because this is a winter car that will double as a spare during summer downtime on my other cars. Water meth will probably freeze in the winter, the tires spin plenty in snow at 17lbs on the .45trim, I can run 18psi without meth on the .60 trim and probably more boost in the winter.

I have settled/ decided to use a small compressor tank, would prefer stainless or aluminum because of rust but will clean the tank the best I can and run a fuel filter or something in the pressure line (Maybe coat it with something inside). I have a Porter Cable 4Gallon pancake compressor with a 1.6hp motor that doesn't run well, I will use the tank and regulator.

Continuing on the cheap side, I have 8 DriSteem humidifier control boxes with sensors from a demolition I decided to sell on Ebay... Today I decided to check whats in them, each one has a Johnson Controls Pneumatic electric switch with a pneumatic range from 3 to 20psi and an adjustment range from 3 to 18psi.
Each one also has an electric solenoid valve that opens with 12V.
Wiring bars and 10 colored wires, many with crimped connectors. These units never ran with Pneumatics so the switches were never used, I gutted 2 of the boxes and grabbed the wires, the solenoids, switches and wire bars and I grabbed 2 more solenoids and pneumatic switches.







That's enough Pneumatic switches and solenoids for two kits.

So in the "Junk" I have lying around I have gathered, (for 0$):
-1.5 Gallon tank.
-4 Gallon tank.
-4 X 3-18psi pneumatic switches *.
-4 X 100psi solenoid valves.
-wires, switches, connectors, quick couplers, high pressure hoses, gauges, toggle switches, warning dash lights...
-2 X compressor regulators.
-5 X factory turbo solenoid valves (code 42).
-3 X Precision 3way bleed off valves *(they looked new and expensive, I thought I could use them as boost controllers and they where going in the trash so I grabbed them, upon inspection I decided they where useless for boost controllers, the knob turns 180degrees and bleeds off at most 15-20% wide open) But using one to reduce the pneumatic pressure switch signals Pressure by 2 or 3PSI would move the pneumatic switches range from 3-18psi to 6-21PSI (Will have to measure bleed off/pressure after the valve at 18, 20 and 22psi and set the switches points accordingly, or just put 18psi to the bleed valve and then to the pressure switch, set the pressure switch to 15psi and adjust the bleed knob until it's in the range, then run 20psi and set the next pressure switch...)
-I have a pile of stainless rods with Misting nozzles welded along the length, they sat in an industrial varnish exhaust system as part of a scrubber system connected by braided stainless lines, the varnish itself causes a reaction to human skin, once you come into contact with it you become allergic, the next time you touch it you rash and swell. I pulled them out of the exhaust ducting during a demolition because I thought they would make perfect intercooler sprayers, I know I cleaned one a couple years but I haven't found that one yet, I was looking at the other ones recently but without disposable gloves and several bags I'm not dragging one around in my car, next trip to my garage I will grab one, haven't touched the stuff yet and it's difficult to clean because everything you use gets contaminated. I want to check the mist and measure the flow a 100psi in sets of 2's.
-I also have hundreds of feet of heavy gauge wire, I am thinking of adding a small battery in the trunk to make up any extra draw the mini compressor might need.

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I'm reading and thinking why, Why build such a complicated system? I'm i missing something here. a Typical Injection can be setup for less than $50 in part using a windshield water fluid tank and pump, boost solenoid and pressure check valve. This system and the diagram in the post seems overly complicated.

1990 mx6lx , f2, nitrous,...13.5@102.9 on 87shot
1989 white pgt.. going for 600whp..1600cc inj
1990 probe gt 491whp at 29psi, holset hx35
1988 mx6gt 501whp @27psi..6262. now megasquirt
1990 mx6lx 348whp@ 18psi slipping clutch...sold
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ademan View Post
I'm reading and thinking why build such a complicated system? I'm i missing something here. a Typical Injection can be setup for less than $50 in part using a windshield water fluid tank and pump, boost solenoid and pressure check valve. This system and the diagram in the post seems overly complicated.
Yes they do, but along the way some things got simplified and some became more complex.
But had I used a simple tank and Shurflo style pump I would have done everything else exactly the same (except the pump would be after the tank).
The air compressor I installed has a maximum run time of 20 minutes, takes about 30 seconds to fill dry system from 0-100psi, with the tank half full it takes about 4 seconds from 92-100psi, the pump doesn't come on very often I am hoping it will be more reliable then shurflo's are.























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The air compressor.

-Removed the end cap and rewired the ground and positive for a permanent installation.
-Installed a 30amp fuse on the 12V+.
-Made a small bracket to mount and protect the air pump from trunk junk, the bracket bolts to 3 of the back seat bracket bolts. I used rubber collars between the pump to base mounting bolts as shock absorbers but the bracket itself is pretty springy so the air pump will see a lot of bouncing but very little impact.



For the solenoid valve and nozzle installations, I drilled holes in the BOV 2.5" pipe (after BOV) and the 3" throttle body elbow pipe (before the extra injectors), I threaded the holes 1/2 way with 1/8npt tap and finished threading from the inside out. Then I screwed in the 1/8"npt threaded mist nozzle pipe and screwed the solenoid valve body onto that. I cut out stainless brackets that mount to the base of the solenoid valve bodies and bent them to sit against the pipe the valve was installed on and held it to the pipe with a hose clamp.
I also drilled and threaded a whole for the intake air temp sensor just before the throttle body and used sealant and metal gaskets to seal the threading.







The kit is running great but I still need to install a pressure switch on the air side of the tank as part of the fail-safe and find or build and install a tiny box with 3indicator lights, 1 for ground signal and tank pressure switch (on pressure is good and fluid is above level), 1 for solenoid 1 ON and 1 for solenoid 2 ON (will allow me to monitor and set at what boost solenoid 1 and 2 come on).
Also need a boost gauge that reads above 20PSI right now the needle is going to what would be 22psi but I can't tell if the needle is bottoming out in the gauge and I don't want to blindly turn the boost any higher to find out.
The internal waste gate is holding perfect boost to redline cut out which is surprising since it's mechanically set at 13-14psi the rest is being bled off.
The car is very fast but controllable and has a lot less wheel spin then my Mx6 GT's.

Will probably need an EGT gauge/sendor to find out the limits of boost and amount of meth injection required when tuning on factory timing and ECU.

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