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Old 11-13-12, 19:12   #16 (permalink)
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It seems the Germans have it right when it comes to oil. First of all you should check to see if your synthetic is actually synthetic. Group 4 oils are laboratory made, while group 3 uses a mineral base with synthetic polymers to give it a synthetic like oil.
It was said that oil in Europe that says 100% synthetic has to be what it says, where as in North America, it can be mineral based.
I use LubroMoly TopTec 5W30 as I think that's what's required of our engines and it falls on that group 4 oil. Plus on the bottle it's approved for VW, Mercedes, BMW, Porche, Renault, and a few other higher performance cars so I can also go 8-10k kilometers on an oil change. Using group 3 should go 5k max on a mineral based to prevent seals and such from going hard and leaking.


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Old 11-13-12, 21:29   #17 (permalink)
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so what would you guys reccomend as far as weight thou for when the days are getting colder then? should I still stick with a synthetic and just run a thicker weight?
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Old 11-13-12, 22:33   #18 (permalink)
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What is missing in the inexpensive oils found at places like Walmart and 7-11 ?
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Old 11-13-12, 23:26   #19 (permalink)
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Try royal purple 15-40 and throw in some oil stabilizer. See if that helps bud. I wanna try a group. Oil sometime. I imagine I would have to order it online though
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Old 11-13-12, 23:26   #20 (permalink)
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Group 4 oil*
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Old 11-29-12, 15:04   #21 (permalink)
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I'm sure if you can find a worldPAC or the retail company that is the same as them. If your lucky, and you find a smaller independent shop, you could probably order some LubroMoly through them.
Definitely worth the switch to some good oil. Last winter I used some cheaper semi-synthetic oil which I thought was good, and it burned oil in the mornings for like the first 15 seconds of start up. After switching to LubroMoly this summer, it must have cleaned up my engine cause I have no more oil burning this winter.


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Old 12-12-12, 10:51   #22 (permalink)
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Penrite Ten Tenths 10w40.
Here's why:

-Fully synthetic = won't gum up when i drive it hard and oil temps go up

-Sheer free = no viscosity-improvers. The oil does not get thinner as the miles rack up so it looks after the bearings for the entire change interval. Also means less chance of oil pressure dropping when the engine is making full power for extended periods of time. IT basically means that it won't overheat and lose its properties as easily as other oils

-Ester and Olefin based = greater chemical stability. Even the healthiest engines let a little fuel into the oil over time. This degrades most oils, on top of the high temperatures experienced at bearing interfaces. Esters and olefins are more resistant to this which means you can use a longer service life. I use 10000km where most people would use 5000km

-Full Zinc = in the form of ZDDP. This compound has excellent anti-wear properties by forming a protective layer under pressure, and penrite has more of it than anything else i've found

-Noise. Not sure if it is just anecdotal to my case. But i have noticed my hydraulic lifters do not tick when using this oil. ever. not once. every other oil (even synthetics) i get a tick at some point. This tells me that the penrite oil does not form sludge in my lifters =


(Not in any way affiliated with a vendor, i just really like this oil and have worked in the oil industry as a process chemist in QA/QC so have picked up a lot of the inner workings of modern engine oils through this experience)

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Old 12-18-12, 2:55   #23 (permalink)
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Redline 20w-50 for track days where the engine is at 5500-7500 rpm for 2-3 hours at 100deg+ Why? Overkill. And the temps and RPM shear the oil down in viscosity a lot as is.

Mobil1 High Mileage 10w-30 for the rest of the time including 50-60 days/year of autocross for the last 7 years/70k miles.

Used Oil analysis has confirmed nearly no wear metals from both Redline and Mobil1 use. The guys at blackstone are always recommending I go longer Oil Change Intervals, even though a M1 change is usually 2k miles of driving to/from events and autocrossing. (not daily driven)

If you're not doing used oil analysis testing you have no idea what your oil/driving/use is or is not doing for your engine. Even then a poor analysis could mean something mechanically wrong with the engine that no oil will have an effect on.

M1 10w-30HM in the '90 626GT ~6k miles OCI
M1 10w-30HM in the '94 PGT-ZE 5-7k miles OCI (Done when convenient)
M1 10w-30HM in the Aunts '98 626 6-9k miles OCI (Done when convenient)

Bulk Kendal/Conoco 5W-30 bulk in nearly everything else (including hundreds of customer cars)
'94 Exploder Towing/Hauling Truck 2-3k OCI (once a year)
'95 Millennia 195k miles 5k OCI
'91 Honda Accord 5k OCI
And a number of other Mazda cars

To the OP:

Long story short, you're wasting money with Royal Purple. M1 has survived more abuse than most people here are likely to experience, is 2/3 the cost and easier to get. Though in all likelyhood a decent 10w30 dino oil would provide all the protection you'll ever need.

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Old 12-18-12, 9:06   #24 (permalink)
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Im due for an oil change as soon as I can do it, I wanna try something new, thinking about using rhaski's oil preference. Im getting a NB miata in the spring and I'm keeping my mx6 as the beater and if I need to carry people or whatever. But I have heard great things about Mobil 1 and have always used it in my motorcycles, with little wear on any of the internals
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Old 12-18-12, 10:28   #25 (permalink)
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M1 is also a great oil. Just costs more, or at least it does in aus. Just make sure that any oil you use meets the latest API standards :
API: SN and ACEA: A3,B4
as long as it meets that, it is synthetic and has a hot grade of 40 (50 seems to be a good step up in viscosity on these engines as they get older) and a cold grade of 15 or less, you're all good. Ie. 10w40 or 15w50. Even 10w60 is good if you've got some miles. The main reason i prefer the penrite 10 tenths is because of its zero sheer formulation. Means longer intervals and less wear when you're revving into the stratosphere

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Old 12-18-12, 11:08   #26 (permalink)
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50-60wt oils are far thicker than the engine was designed for. Unless you know that tolerances have opened up thicker thick and may cause more wear due to inadequate lubrication on startup. The kl had an expected service life of 300k miles on 10w30 Dino oil. Under normal driving conditions in a mechanically sound motor anything more is overkill or just good for longer OCI's or just making you feel better which is ok too.

Last edited by Ryan; 12-18-12 at 12:41..

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Old 12-18-12, 20:57   #27 (permalink)
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I don't mean to be rude here but you are quite mistaken about the viscosity the engine is designed for, as it is designed to operate a HUGE range of viscosities over a wide temperature range. See, 5w60 is no thicker at startup than a 5w30 during the northern winter. In fact, even at 25 celcius, the difference is minimal. That number after the "w" is measured at 100 celcius. It means that at 100C, the oil has still gotten thinner (as oils always will), but it has only thinned out as much as a monograde 50 weight would. But when the oil is cold, it doesn't get any thicker at zero degrees than a 5 weight would. So interestingly, a 10w50 is still thinner at operating temperature than a 5w30 is at startup, therefore, the oiling system will not have any issues moving it. In fact, the bigger the difference between cold and hot numbers, the more stable the oil's viscosity is over a temperature range. For example, a 5w50 maintains it's kinematic viscosity from 0 degrees to 100 degrees much more closely than a 5w30. This is referred to as Viscosity Index, and the higher the better in most cases. The better the viscosity index, the more expensive the oil is, generally speaking.

VI is best explained in this graph:
http://www.kewengineering.co.uk/Auto...multigrade.jpg
EDIT: note the overlap at 0C and 100C. This is what makes it a 5w40 oil

Here's some numbers to show what i'm talking about. Note: Kinematic Viscosity is measured in Centrestokes or cSt

AT 100 CELCIUS:

SAE 30 = 9.3 - 12.5 cSt
SAE 40 = 12.5 - 16.3 cSt
SAE 50 = 16.3 - 21.9 cSt
SAE 60 = 21.9 - 26.1 cSt

AT 0 Celcius: (estimations from plotted data, as cSt in not normally reported at 0C)
0w = ~450 cSt
5w = ~550 cSt
10w= ~750 cSt
15w= ~1300 cSt

these are some very high numbers (but the oiling system copes with them on a cold day), we don't normally use the cSt rating at this temperature range

These are MULTIgrade oils we deal with, so the second number is irrelevant at 0 celcius, so that's where the 0w, 5w etc comes from:

BUT, AT 0 CELCIUS: we actually measure Cold Cranking Viscosity, not cSt:

0w = 6 200 @ -35C
5w = 6 600 @ -30C
10w= 7 000 @ -25C
15w = 7 000 @ -20C

The oil recommendations for this engine actually include viscosities from 5w30, right up to 15w50. You would select them based on what you do with the engine (hard driving: use a heavier hot weight)

We can now see that oil viscosity does not change linearly, it changes at a curved rate dependant on the two numbers that define it's "start" and "end" points in cSt:
Best shown here: (warm-up shown only)
http://www.kewengineering.co.uk/Auto...comparison.jpg

So as you can see, the change is viscosity during initial warmup is effected very little by the second number, mainly the the first number is what's important, and even the heaviest 20w50 is still thinner when warm than the 5w was when cold. So the oil pump will have no issues moving it around.

Now, let's not forget sheering effects. You might find a 5w50 mineral oil, sure, but don't touch it. A mineral oil required Viscosity Improvers to achieve this excellent VI. They stop working over time, ie. they "sheer" (quite literally, the molecules get sheers into smaller molecules under heat and pressure in the engine), leaving you with something more like a 5w20 as the oil gets towards it's drain interval...lower viscosity when hot = thinner oil film in things like bearings and piston rings = more wear (and at a hot rating of 20, wear would be relatively fast).
Fully Synthetic oils, however, offer the advantage of being able to go without Viscosity Improvers, they have the correct sized paraffins, esters and olefins to achieve the viscosity index required to make a 5w50 oil. They do not sheer nearly as easily, if at all, during a normal drain interval. For this reason, you can also go an extended drain interval with many synthetics. As long as they are Group IV or V oils, and not the much cheaper group III synthetics. You get what you pay for basically. Remember to look for an API: SN/CF and ACEA: A3/B4 if you want to be sure you are getting the "good" oil.

So in conclusion, if you engine is not brand new, you can benefit from using an oil with a higher "hot" rating, as it will hold a thicker film through the larger bearing clearances etc. You can not hurt your engine by using 40 or 50 "hot" weight oils such as 10w50. But don't go higher than this unless you have a lot of miles, because you may reduce the overall oil supply to certain parts of the engine, which may cause sludge formation or loss of lubrication.
Technically, the best viscosity to use would be 5w40 or 5w50 or even 0w40, 0w50 (but you would be wasting money at this stage). Because on a cold winter morning, it is very easy to warm up to working viscosity, but it doesn't get too thin at operating temperature.
Another thing to bear in mind is that when this engine was built, oils of these grades were basically unavailable, and so were not included in the recommendations. But these grades are BETTER than what used to be available. There is gain to be had for engines that are worked hard, or have some wear already.
For engines that don't get driven hard, do mostly long drives and not a lot of city driving, get changed at 5000km intervals, then sure 5w30 will absolutely be sufficient

Sources:
Lubrication Consulting and Lubrication Training
Oil Viscosity - Engineers Edge
Motor Oil Viscosity Grades Explained in Layman's Terms
http://themotoroilevaluator.com/memb...#axzz2FSjsP33o

and most importantly: my experience as a Process Chemist at Australasian Lubricants Manufacturing Company (ALMC), where Caltex, Castrol, BP gear, engine, hydraulic and agricultural oils and greases are made.

Sorry if i ranted for too long. I didn't know how to explain this any shorter :/

Last edited by Rhaski; 12-18-12 at 22:59..

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Old 12-18-12, 22:49   #28 (permalink)
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Wow rhaski that was very informative, I will use this as a benchmark. I had no idea how they measured viscosity and such as far as cst like you said. Thanks again. I have 149k miles on my motor and I would like to use 5w-50 or more but I can't find them to save my life. Money when it comes to.my car is not an option. I've always paid for the best things regardless of price, unless I was getting ripped off of course but I appreciate all the information for sure!!
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Old 12-18-12, 22:56   #29 (permalink)
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If you can't find 5w50 (i believe Mobil1 make a 5w50), try the penrite 10w50, or a good synthetic 5w40 or 10w40. There is always some room for movement.
More importantly, look for SN/CF and A3/B4 ratings as these are only available on oils made with very high quality base stocks. Avoid mineral oils if you plan on spirited driving or you want longer change intervals (or both). Glad i could help

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Old 12-19-12, 2:06   #30 (permalink)
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+1 Rep! Very informative Rhaski! May try out a 5w40 next change!

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