K series/FE3 HLA cleaning.(for more lift/power, and less tick)

[fredio54]

Posted this some time ago, thought i should leave a link to it here too.

It is for those members on a low budget with free time, or those just interested to know why they fail and how they look inside.

at some stage i'll take some pics aswell, when i do i'll bump this up.

http://mx6.com/forums/showthread.php?t=106184

Fred.

[fredio54]

Heres an update with pictures....

A set of pics showing the Lifter Disassembled.

A Brand New HLA for Mazda FE-DOHC (AKA FE3) or K series V6. Top view.



The lifter from below with the piston removed. You can see in this shot the recess that allows the oil to get from the main part of the lifter into the pistons in the middle. You can also see the seating mark of the innermost piston on the main lifter body.



The middle piston (the one you can see without pulling it to bits) wuith its circlip, and showing the groove that it runs in.



The middle piston with its circlip from above. You can see the step at the bottom that centres the spring, and a slight mark where the spring has been seating.



Another shot showing the step and mark more clearly.



The innermost piston and the spring that goes between it and the middle one from the side. You can just see the ball valve and the tiny spring through the pressed in retainer thing.



The innermost piston from the top. You can clearly see the ball valve here.



The middle piston assembly in line and ready to slide together.



The assembled piston unit.



A rough "paint" cross-sectional drawing of one of these little beasts.



On my worst engine the part of the innermost piston where the ball is visible was completely filled with carbon. On my better one, this was just dirty, but not full at all. The tiny ball valve is held in place by a VERY light spring pressure, and the oil pressure inside generated by pushing down on the valvehead and spring pressure. If these are dirty, and a piece of carbon gets under the ball between it and its seat, it will not hold pressure, and your engine WILL tick....

It is not possible to ensure that the lifter is properly primed with oil without taking it to pieces. This is the case simply because of the orientation of the holes in various parts relative to one another.

To get them apart you simply wrap them with a rag, and grip them around the side tightly with a multi grip(adjustable wrench), and bang them down firmly onto a piece of wood the same way up as in the engine. The middle piston assembly will just push the circlip out of the way and pop out. If they are stubborn, they will be at the dirtier end of the spectrum...

I believe that the reason that they clog up so badly is that the oil is close to stagnant inside the lifter, with only say 15% escaping on full compression of the middle piston(which shouldnt happen often when in good shape. the lifter is touching the valve stem, and gets hot, when mineral oils get hot they deposit their tar and crap. once there are solids inside it, they have little hope of getting out. If synthetic were used, then they may never have failed. for what its worth, mine hold air pressure for extended periods when dead clean and dry(no oil to seal it) thus the tolerances on even worn units is tight enough to justify what i have said.

I went looking to find out what was in these, because I read in the shop manual that if they are soft they should be thrown out, and replaced, i went to mazda and asked howmuch, NZ$35 each!!! there are 16 in my engine, and 24 in you poor V6 guys heads...

I have a crap job, with low pay (3 hours per lifter), and as such it was economical to clean them, proper cleaning takes time, and if you are well paid, you should just buy them, but on a low budget, it is worth the effort, particularly if the engine isn't tooooo bad inside.

Cleaning them :

Initialy i soaked them in petrol(gas) to remove the oil, after that i sprayed them with oven cleaner again and again, rinsing, and only stopping when the white cleaner didnt get discoloured by carbon deposits i couldnt see. It pays to have a bent brush to clean up under the rim in the main lifter body, quite a bit of crap can be found in there.

Re-assembly :

start by putting the circlip back on, ensure it isn't bent much or at all, or it will not slide in well, or not stop it coming back out.

when refilling them, lay the main bit upside down, and fill it with oil. tilt it such that the hole in the side is up on about a 30deg angle, and overfill till no bubbles come out through it. lay it back down again, and fill up the middle piston, drop in the spring, lower the little piston in the correct way up. if you put it in upside down, its going to be difficult to get it out (dont ask :-). put oil down into the little piston, and push down gently on the ball with a jewlers screwdriver or similar small thing to bleed the air out, and then allow it to suck more oil in from above. have the main lifter body overfilled with oil, lower the piston assembly into the pool and invert it, sliding it into the main body. you are done. the lifter should be rock hard now, test this by squeezing the @#$% out of it. one of mine leaked, so i took it back apart, re cleaned it, reassembled, and then it was ok.

good luck.

[fredio54]

bump for a shift to general 2g mx6 and sticky. please refer to the thread linked above that has been sticky for ever and a day in the fe3 section. these are now well tried and true methods that multiple people including mods have used with success.

i was reminded of this by the sig of "Cross".

i'm linking him here.

fred.

[Cross]

This is an great thread, Karma given. I am glad somehow my sig reminded you about this ^.^

Good old Harvey93GT lol.

I don't think I have seen a better write up or any on this for that matter. Hope it gets Vaulted or Sticked etc so it can be around for everyone to always get use from.

[mxdriver]

napa quoted me at 14 apiece

[BrokenJohnny]

Though I consider myself to have intermediate knowledge about the 6, I'm going to be honest and admit that I really don't know what this thread is about. However, the main reason I'm on this site is to learn about cars. Namely the MX6.

I'm assuming that the lifters are those of the valve train.

If anyone feels like getting a karma point from me, could you briefly explain what K series/FE3 HLA cleaning is all about?

[Cross]

Ok on the KL Motors (I have no experience with the FE3) there are Hydrolic Lash Assister's (Do I have that right?) are basically in the Heads under your Cam Lobes.

The problem most run into is that they make a ticking noise that to those who are not familiar with them can be confused for rod knock etc. Its also very annoying as it can be quite loud.

Now normally you either replaced them (Removing the cams to do so) or tried to clean them. I have never heard of anyone doing this tear down so to me this is great. I normally just run motor flush before every oil change and so far I have been fine. Others have taken them out and soaked them in different chemicals and had good luck.

However this by far is the best way to fix that problem lol.

[KING6]

BINGO. With a bit of editiing, could be great howto material

[fredio54]

do follow the link to the fe3 version, as there is more discussion, and some minor updates in that. its been up for a while, every little while someone goes "wow thanks" lol mine worked perfectly, and i cleaned them when i wrote that article, and only used them 4 months ago for the first time :-)

[KING6]

A few things I disagree with:


I dont believe the HLA ticks because the ball valve cant hold pressure. I believe it fails because it cannot get pressure. The HLA gets so dirty inside that It doesnt get the presssure needed inside the midlde part to function properly (usually at idle). On the motor I rebuilt, The HLAS ticked as normal. When I took them out, they were as hard as a rock. I could barely get them apart, couldnt push the plunger in by hand. Id suggest that as a HLA in need of cleaning. I cleaned them, installed them, the motor sounded like brand new and ran like brand new. Now I have that same motor in my garage, untouched, still brand new as ever. with the VCS pulled off it, and I can push in every HLA by hand. And I know I can put it in a car someday, start it up.. and it would be just as quiet as ever

The motor pressurizes the HLA via the oil pump. The HLA's should operate at whatever your oil pressure is at.
YOu dont need to put oil in them. Simply assemble them, hold them under a tub of oil and pump them a few times. Let them soak in it for a few hrs if needed. Upon start up, the motor will fill them.

Also, Diesel fuel is good to clean them in. It eats off all of the grime, while still having a petroleum base to keep from ruining any parts.

I used silver bullets write up on probetalk back in 2003.

[fredio54]

quite simply, it does. there is enormous pressure on that thing, and its under that pressure for long enough to squeeze oil out if its not sealing well. on the other hand, when its trying to fill up, it has a slight oil pressure from the side (non sealed system, its not really pressure at all, just air free supply) and a light spring inside to force it open again. the ball is critical. critical!

with time, the ones under spring pressure from open valves will collapse and empty, if clean, this is as you say a non issue. however, not being able to push it in by hand is not really a good way of telling if its sealing or not. you just cant simulate that pressure by hand easily. one thing is for sure, if you do manage to push it in, its still dirty.

as for diesel... nope. no way is that going to do jack [shizzle] to a truly dirty hla. i'm not saying your hla has to be that dirty to have a tick, infact, just a tiny bit of dirt will stuff them up, hence the endless problems...


summary :
sealing is critical. period.
diesel will not clean a badly dirty lifter. period.

when you have it properly cleaned and therefore sealed, you can wash it dry with solvents, and it will hold air pressure no problem. this is the level of cleanliness required for perfect operation. oil changes and good filtration are key on any hla engine.

[KING6]

Are you seariously that closed minded, feels like im replying to a mazda tech that designed the motor.

We use deisel fuel to clean parts at our shop. Parts that are on big rigs that get more dirty then any HLA could ever be. Everytime we do a wheel seal on a rig, We take it to our parts washer machine, wich is filled with deisel.. and it eats all of grime right off the bearings in seconds. (grime that the strongest brake cleaner, degreaser takes alot of, and much more time to clean)
It will work, I wash my hands with it when ever I get done with work and I have oily greasy spots soaked into my skin that soap will not remove. Id use a solvent, but that crap drys your hands out. Desiel just leaves a smell.. wich goes away after washing your hands a few times.

All I know is mine work like new, Ill continue to do it like Ive done it in the past.
It doesnt matter if there not getting the pressure, or not holding it,, or a combination of that. They need to be cleaned.
But so does the rest of the motor.
Far as i know, from my expereince, they dont get caked brown inside like the rest of the motor. And that, requires a few hrs in the heated/enclosed parts washer.

[Cross]

King can you link me to the thread on PT? I think I am going to try this out as I do not have time to pull 48 apart... or even 24 for that matter.

[KING6]

The link to probetalk is the same type of write up here.

I dunno if you mis read, but I had to disassmble all of them and clean them out. I just used diesel as my cleaning solution. You can use anything, It doesnt matter (brake wash, parts cleaner)

Link
HLA, what are they, why do they tick, how to clean them, dissassemly/reassembly...... - ProbeTalk.com Forums

HLA cleaning.doc -File
http://home.comcast.net/~mmunoz70/z/hla.doc
(it works, I just downloaded it)

[fredio54]

Originally Posted by KING6

Are you seariously that closed minded, feels like im replying to a mazda tech that designed the motor.

to me it appears that sometimes you post your opinion just because you want it to be different, and refuse to listen. case in point : pcv thread.

your attitude seemed to be something like :

"i did it this way and nothing bad happened so it must be right"

instead of a logical reasoned approach that shows what must be right rather than assuming it.

in summary, no i'm not closed minded, but i have thought this through thoroughly.

We use deisel fuel to clean parts at our shop. Parts that are on big rigs that get more dirty then any HLA could ever be. Everytime we do a wheel seal on a rig, We take it to our parts washer machine, wich is filled with deisel.. and it eats all of grime right off the bearings in seconds. (grime that the strongest brake cleaner, degreaser takes alot of, and much more time to clean)

i dont doubt that diesel softens greasy gunk. quickly even.

It will work, I wash my hands with it when ever I get done with work and I have oily greasy spots soaked into my skin that soap will not remove. Id use a solvent, but that crap drys your hands out. Desiel just leaves a smell.. wich goes away after washing your hands a few times.

are you looking forward to a slow painful cancerous death? perhaps you should rethink your use of carcinogens to wash yourself. maybe even wear gloves.

All I know is mine work like new, Ill continue to do it like Ive done it in the past.

sure, i wasnt suggesting you do anything differently. cept not state that the ball doesnt matter when it does.

It doesnt matter if there not getting the pressure, or not holding it,, or a combination of that. They need to be cleaned.
But so does the rest of the motor.

true. if the engine is dirty, they will start ticking again sooner. synthetic oil will stop the crap from forming inside the lifter from valve heat though.

Far as i know, from my expereince, they dont get caked brown inside like the rest of the motor. And that, requires a few hrs in the heated/enclosed parts washer.

see, this assumption on your part has led to the apparent disagreement.

they DO get caked brown, ney, caked solid and believe it or not DRY WITH NO OIL AT ALL. just solid gunk. nothing else. dry carbon. diesel will NOT dissolve that at all. not even close. however, i also missed the bit where you said you knocked them down to clean. sounded like you just soaked them in diesel and called it good.

i didnt pull that little hat out of mine. that would have made the cleaning somewhat quicker and easier. i have to say though, i dont recommend just grabbing them with pliers etc. i know they are MUCH harder than the pliers, but if you should scour them at all...

i still prefer the impact method for getting the middle bit out of the main big bit.

as for the ball thing, heres why :

the principle of operation is that the freeplay is taken up by the thing expanding on its own accord (partially assisted by "oil pressure" (the head only has flow really. hence the restrictor between the head and the block)) and drawing in oil as it does so. upon compression with the cam, the oil must not escape, hence the tight fit, and accurate check valve that seals and hold enormous pressure.

to illustrate this :

when they are properly clean, you can put them in a vice and squeeze till seomthing gives. no oil will come out... it will be like a solid lump of metal. these are the wonders of hydraulic systems. zero (for water, but close to it for others) compression is a great property of most liquids.

dont take it the wrong way. just saying it how it is.