E85 upgrade.

[anthrax1202]

I was just kinda curious so I thought I'd ask. Was wondering if any fellow mx6ers have considered an e85 upgrade or maybe somebody already has? It has a much higher octane level then regular gasoline difference being gasoline at 87-93 octane and E85 being 100-105 octane And it also runs at a much cooler temp then regular gasoline. What kind of a performance gain do you think you could get when used along with the higher compression klze engine? Just wondering if anyone had any information on this subject. I thought it would be kinda cool to know, or if its worth going through the trouble of changing out all the fuel lines and the gas tank/whatever else it takes. (unsure)

[Renboy]

Unless you consider a 25% drop in fuel economy a performance gain...don't bother. High octane is great IF you NEED it.

[shattyfatmas]

Not to mention that E85 is a brutal lie that most people unfortunately do not understand or are not aware of. In reality, its more environmentally conscientious to use normal gas due to the extremely energy intensive and inefficient process of making E85. Another thing to consider is that buying E85 drives the business of E85, which means more farmland is devoted to growing fuel that isn't helping anyone conserve oil while increasing the price of corn and everything corn goes into.

uh, and its not good for performance unless you need to run 30 PSI of boost, and good luck with that in a Mazda MX-6.

[chief tool]

Rebel2k4 is running an Mx3 turbo KL power car running E85. Making 400Whp

I've considered it.
Its closer to 105 RON, for a boosted engine the potential is great in terms of performance.
I wouldnt consider doing it for economic reasons.

you would need to raise the compression to at least 12:1 on an NA engine to get a useful performance gain, and even then expect it to use 33% more fuel.

So it needs to be at least 33% cheaper to break even, then there is the less distance out of a tank issue.

If you still want to do it....I believe you probably wont need change all that much except you'll need 40% bigger injectors, and maybe a bigger fuel pump and lines depending on the power increase your looking at. then it wont run on anything else after you've made the modifications, as the variations in AFR will be outside the ECUs self tuning range.

Steel lines and tank are OK generally, so is neoprene lines, some aluminium alloys and zinc alloys are no good, I was going to make up a SS fuel rail. Other people have not done this however and the rail seems to be OK.
You will at least need to change the fuel filter on the transition and then change it alot more often.
Do a google search on E85 and E85 conversions, and you'll find alot of interesting articles on the subject.

[ls six]

Originally Posted by shattyfatmas

Not to mention that E85 is a brutal lie that most people unfortunately do not understand or are not aware of. In reality, its more environmentally conscientious to use normal gas due to the extremely energy intensive and inefficient process of making E85. Another thing to consider is that buying E85 drives the business of E85, which means more farmland is devoted to growing fuel that isn't helping anyone conserve oil while increasing the price of corn and everything corn goes into.

uh, and its not good for performance unless you need to run 30 PSI of boost, and good luck with that in a Mazda MX-6.

Ignorant much? The majority of corn grown is used for feed. The proccess for producing ethanol leaves 90% or more original product for feed. The best proccesses leave 100% of the original nutritional value.

There is absolutely NO affect on the price of corn due to ethanol.

You might have a point that it takes more energy to make ethanol rather than pumping oil out of the ground but oil is limited and will run low enough as to be impractical as a major power source.

Eventually we will need to move on.

Ethanol is simply a version of solar energy and can be produced as long as the sun shines.

The holy grail of energy technology is being able to match the efficency of natures energy conversion/storage in a closed system.

Originally Posted by chief tool

expect it to use 33% more fuel.

So it needs to be at least 33% cheaper to break even, then there is the less distance out of a tank issue.

Increasing the compression will improve the efficiency. Not 33% but close to half of that is possible. Then theres the matter of load in N/A applications, Having more power everywhere will significantly reduce the throttle angle needed to accelerate at any given pace.

[ZEmx]

this might help, but it might be able to be accomplished with a good megasquirt tune, i did some research and it says all you really need is longer pulse with on the injectors but im no tunning guru nor have i done the conversion.
Converting for E85

[shattyfatmas]

Originally Posted by ls six

Ignorant much?
Ethanol is simply a version of solar energy and can be produced as long as the sun shines..

First of all, you have no idea who I am, so you can [fizzle] off and die like the dirty dickless [cork soaker] you are.

Second of all, for every gallon of ethanol yeilded, it takes between 7-11 gallons of diesel. Its not renewable. Its not in any way better. Its more expensive and less widely available. And really, if it is taking up to 50% of the corn grown in some states, then it will affect corn and corn based products' costs. Do some research before you come in here with a dick in your mouth trying to talk about something you know nothing about.

[ls six]

Second of all, for every gallon of ethanol yeilded, it takes between 7-11 gallons of diesel. Its not renewable.

Don't know where your getting those #'s but if that's all transportation costs then gasoline and diesel costs just as much to transport.

Its not in any way better. Its more expensive and less widely available.

Yes because it's a new fuel as far a mass consumption is concerned.

And really, if it is taking up to 50% of the corn grown in some states

,

It isn't though. Read up.

then it will affect corn and corn based products' costs.

It's the price of gas and diesel that's jacking up the price of corn and corn products. Transportation costs are one of the bigest expenses in the food industry.

Do some research before you come in here with a dick in your mouth trying to talk about something you know nothing about.

I have, you on the other hand have made only baseless assumptions and lies.

{EDIT} Heres some facts.....

Depending on composition and source, E85 has an octane rating of 100 - 105 compared to regular gasoline's typical rating of 87 - 93. This allows it to be used in higher compression engines which tend to produce more power per unit of displacement than their gasoline counterparts. Since the reciprocating mass of the engine increases in proportion to the displacement of the engine E85 has a higher potential efficiency for an engine of equal power. One complication is that use of gasoline in an engine with a high enough compression ratio to use E85 efficiently would likely result in catastrophic failure due to engine detonation, as the octane rating of gasoline is not high enough to withstand the greater compression ratios in use in an engine specifically designed to run on E85. Use of E85 in an engine designed specifically for gasoline would result in a loss of the potential efficiency that it is possible to gain with this fuel. Using E85 in a gasoline engine has the drawback of achieving lower fuel economy as more fuel is needed per unit air (stoichiometric fuel ratio) to run the engine in comparison with gasoline. E85 also has a lower heating value (units of energy per unit mass) than gasoline leading to a reduction in power output in a gasoline engine. E85 consumes more fuel in flex fuel type vehicles when the vehicle uses the same fuel/air mixture and compression for both E85 and gasoline because of its lower stoichiometric fuel ratio and lower heating value. European car maker Saab currently produces a flex fuel version of their 9-5 sedan which consumes the same amount of fuel whether running e85 or gasoline, though it is not available in the United States. So in order to save money at the pump with current flex fuel vehicles available in the United States the price of E85 must be much lower than gasoline. Currently E85 is about 5-10% less expensive in most areas. More than 20 fueling stations across the Midwest are selling E85 25%-40% cheaper than gasoline. E85 also gets less MPG, at least in flex fuel vehicles. In one test, a Chevy Tahoe flex-fuel vehicle averaged 18 MPG [U.S. gallons] for gasoline, and 13 MPG for E85, or 28% fewer MPG than gasoline. In that test, the cost of gas averaged $3.42, while the cost for E85 averaged $3.09, or 90% the cost of gasoline.

[shattyfatmas]

E85 will probably not ever take the place of gasoline, even when gasoline is gone. As you pointed out in the Wikipedia "article" and "facts" you posted, it is not as efficient, and is still costing more for most people for less over all range from their vehicle. Because of these two things, it will never gain mass appeal to consumers. And still, E85 has gasoline in it, and therefore not even a true alternative. Engineering firms all over the world are trying to figure out something better than E85 every single day, it is not a long term solution. it is something put in place and expanded by the government under Bush's administration, which is not saying much. Fuel cells are much more likely to take the place of gasoline, and if hydrogen motors advance past the new Honda model quickly, hydrogen will rapidly take the market (as long as they can keep up with power demands).

And really, in a world of growing population and in many cases overcrowding, do you really think we should be devoting farm land to growing fuel, decreasing the over all food production? Supply and demand should not be too hard of a concept even for a high schooler.

Also, the 7-11 units of carbon based fuels to one unit of ethanol based fuel is only the ratio for production, not including transportation, this is the result of a study published in an engineering journal, or i would link it for you.

If E85 ever becomes what you think it is, it will take immense amounts of land, as projected in other studies. Reading Wikipedia and then telling someone to "read up" makes you look like a jack ass.

[ls six]

As you pointed out in the Wikipedia "article" and "facts" you posted, it is not as efficient

,

Actualy the article said E85 has the potential to be more eficient than gasoline. Like I said read up.

and is still costing more for most people for less over all range from their vehicle.

Because they dont drive E85/ethanol specific vehicles.

Because of these two things, it will never gain mass appeal to consumers. And still, E85 has gasoline in it, and therefore not even a true alternative.

I never said it was.

Fuel cells are much more likely to take the place of gasoline,

And where do we get all this hydrogen from? There is no free hydrogen on this planet.

and if hydrogen motors advance past the new Honda model quickly, hydrogen will rapidly take the market (as long as they can keep up with power demands).

Hydrogen fuel cells have been around for decades. They are definitely in the future but they wont take over.

And really, in a world of growing population and in many cases overcrowding, do you really think we should be devoting farm land to growing fuel, decreasing the over all food production? Supply and demand should not be too hard of a concept even for a high schooler.

For the third and last time ethanol production has little to no effect on food prices.

If your so concerned then stop eating meat. Like I have allready said most of the corn produced goes to feed for livestock. Add the land required for the livestock it's self and the drastic net loss associated with livestock production and it's obvious that meat is very inefficient and wastefull.

Having said that I aint giving up meat.

Also, the 7-11 units of carbon based fuels to one unit of ethanol based fuel is only the ratio for production, not including transportation, this is the result of a study published in an engineering journal, or i would link it for you.

Ethanol is no more expensive to produce than any other alcahol. Prices will drop for it while gas prices can only go up in the long haul.

If E85 ever becomes what you think it is, it will take immense amounts of land, as projected in other studies. Reading Wikipedia and then telling someone to "read up" makes you look like a jack ass.

You dont know what I think it will become.

I KNOW we wont have the type of energy economy we have had for the last century. It wont be based on a single fuel source (fossil fuel) and will be a more competitive market for it.

The article I posted is one of many. That information was out there for you to find from many other sources if you had bothered to look.

I was just showing that there is a lot of information there if you look.

[shattyfatmas]

dude you cant even spell alcohol.

[Stealth]

Enough with the personal attacks. He is supporting his findings, your making statements without supporting evidence.

Please stay on topic this is about converting to E85, not if it will solve the worlds energy crisis.

[shattyfatmas]

Originally Posted by Stealth

Enough with the personal attacks. He is supporting his findings, your making statements without supporting evidence.

Please stay on topic this is about converting to E85, not if it will solve the worlds energy crisis.

Yea, I'm sorry my sources are not Wikipedia, a website that someone even as ignorant as this [giant half-man-half-chicken] can edit anytime with whatever they want. He sure is supporting his "findings". Go ahead and defend him, but proliferating that kind of bull[shizzle] and then telling someone who is much, much closer to this issue in reality that they are wrong is just not an indication of his intelligence and makes ls six look foolish and uneducated.

[ls six]

Originally Posted by Stealth

Enough with the personal attacks. He is supporting his findings, your making statements without supporting evidence.

Please stay on topic this is about converting to E85, not if it will solve the worlds energy crisis.

Exactly stealth. I didnt mean for this to go to [shizzle] like this.

In my opinion E85 and ethanol can provide lots of benefits most of them have been mentioned already but the huge improvement in mechanical efficiency is the major one.

The higher octane rating and lower heat output offers the opportunity to run otherwise ridiculous compression ratios. One old school hot rodder in the midwest actualy drives his ethanol powered race car on long trips with out any cooling system. That would make the car mostly unable to run on regular gas except for the Saab mentioned in the article. That car probably uses variable compression ratio technology which is something Saab/GM have been developing for a few years now though I had no idea it was in production.

With our cars existing technology it looks like an either /or dilemma since we dont even have variable valve timing. All we have are a few aftermarket ECU's that can alter timing just fine but I doubt they could me made to adjust the fuel maps on the fly to work with either gas ethanol or any possible mix of the two that will happen on a regular basis.

[ls six]

[quote=shattyfatmas;2041050]Yea, I'm sorry my sources are not Wikipedia, QUOTE]


What sources?