Fitting a Falcon 100amp alternator to you 1G pics galore

[carcenomy]

Say what? I've never had problems with batteries not lasting or not charging enough on short trips with my 1genA, with the stock Mitsi 70A alternator...

[rodhog]

Not many people did but Ford Australia thought it to be problem, in inital testing of the GD model in 1987. So they made sure it was not a problem. Mazda then made the change latter, During the Gd1022 update. It's all in Mazda Wokshop manuals

[fredio54]

cause ford oz >> mazda japan?

gimme a break, millions upon millions of jap cars have mitsi alternators in them. most mazdas and most mitsis (if not all of both) and many others. its normal for the odd diode to go when covered in water and crap and 100kkm old. its also normal for acar thats had a lot of electrical load on it for a long time to chew them out at 100kkm or more.

in reality most go a lot further. like 200kkm. my utes original alternator was still on it and working great until it went into a dumpster just after i left the country (what a waste).

its funny you know, when i used to go and ask my sparky about which brands he has the most trouble with, he never said mazda, never nissan, never toyota, never mitsi, never subby, can you guess which two makes gave him the most electrical grief?

...

[rodhog]

I know which two give the most problem

but Do you know which two makes are easiest to get aftermarket spares and cheapest original parts

Bosch and Denso.

I'm not going to get into a fight here about it. I have the books that state what they changed and why. Plus this does not RELATE TO NZ spec cars. None it relates to Aus delivered cars and the Product update changes introduced at 11/89.

The whole reason LOCAL Aus built cars have Bosch alternaotrs fitted even Toyota's have had them is for ease of parts availability and cost. A whole regulator and brush set for a 80amp unit is $70 trade. It costs bugger all labour to fit. especially in a car with an easy to get to alternator. Most places would not charge the $50 labour to do it.
To do it to the stock mitsubishi unit you have to remove it - pull it apart means desoldering and resolder etc and then put all back togeather and back into the car. The equals a costly job.
Plus if you see the performance of the mitsubishi unit on the right Meters perform against both local Aus Bosch units and German ones - they blow them away. The Nippon denso Aka Toyota units too work extra well.

Yes you find the bosch stuff fails but then the other stuff fails, Go try and rebuild them and you may find no aftermarket parts on shelf. Mazda Nissan and others Want you to buy new. Try get a rebuild for 97 model V6 Maxima starter motor - not possible. Nissan want $560 for a new unit.

I ain't going to scan the Page in the workshop manual to rub it into your face either.

[fredio54]

easy tiger :

Originally Posted by mx6.com

MX6.com > Regional Forums > Australia & New Zealand > Aus Important Information

see the bit just before aus important info? it says oz and nz.

its an american site with international usage.

i do find it funny that you state "remove disassemble and reinstall" as something you only have to do on the mitsi...

my sparky would laugh at you saying "not possible" on the rebuild for the maxima alternator... ANYTHING is rebuildable. period. my starter motor rebuilds cost me $10nz each and about 10m. that was before i got the jap spec gear reduction units and never had another problem.

brushes and diodes are generic, they cost little to nothing for the parts, and take a different (but usually insignificant) amount of time to fit depending on the model.

back OT, i'm wondering about the original problem :

what was the voltage at the battery at idle? with lights on? off?
how about at 3k? on? off?
what size/condition was the battery?

its normal for full charging current to only be developed at reduced voltages anyway.

its also better for the battery to have the last bit topped up more slowly than the first bit.

i would expect 13 - 14v at idle with the headlights on. i'd expect 14.4 at higher rpm

and 11.5 - 12.5 with the engine off.

you should be looking at 12.5 - 13 (usually 12.8) with the battery fully charged and having sat for a little bit.

i'm expecting the battery in the ute to be at 0v when i get back to NZ :-)

and its going to be a pig to change too :-)

fred.

[chief tool]

I decided to do the swap after a few other people on the forum had discovered a similar problem with their car. I chose to fit the mitsubishi one off a ford, as I was doing it as a low budget mod, and I could not find a bosch unit that had the right current rating for what I wanted.

One of my paid jobs is building commercial vehicles with electronic equipment racks in the back that consume heaps of power...apart from fitting half a dozen extra batteries, we sometimes fit an extra alternator if there is space...or try to fit a bigger one if there isnt.

And on the whole I'd have to say I am pretty dissapointed with the number of manufacturers who think that they can get away with an alternator that is borderline for the car...the GD 626 fits that bill...no other car that I've owned was as bad...I have had a few GC's and all except my turbo one were ok. Its probably comes down to cost savings by the manufacturers

One of the best Alternators I have come across is the denso one of a '97 Jeep Cherokee (the rest of the car is rubbish) it was a 120amp, delivering 100amps at idle...fantastic...we didnt upgrade the alternator on that car..
The rear equipment draws on average 40-50 amps...
The only thing that happened in the end was all the varnish peeled of the windings after about 5 years of use/abuse I'd would say this was due to the lack of internal cooling, drawing 100 amps is one thing but the alternator fan running at about no revs at the same time isnt good, plus Jeep engine bays get so hot that you burn your fingers on the bonnet in the summer...this didnt help either.

In summing up...fiitng the ford one was cheap...the mitsubishi one turned out to be easier to get (and maybe slightly easier to fit) and it fixed the problem.

Sure some alternators can be a bitch to repair...but at $40 I would just visit the wreckers again! I wouldnt call repairing a mitsubishi one a show stopper..even taking it off the car. Its not like your doing it every weekend!

And if you havent increased you electrical loads, its unlikely that this mod will be of much value except it might make replacement alternators cheaper.

And the FE3 engined cars might not experience the same problem, as the alternator may spin faster at idle than it does on the GD with 12v/8v engines.

[carcenomy]

FE3 doesn't idle any faster than FE/F2...

I would have thought the reason Australian assembled Mazdas, Toyotas etc used Bosch parts etc is the same reason RWD Corollas had Borg Warner diffs, PBR brake systems and Trimatic autos in Aussie - to keep within the local content rules of the era.

[fredio54]

if anything the alt might spin slower at idle on the fe3 (same idle) as it might be geared for higher rpm. probably the same though.

fair enough, if you have a tonne of stuff in the back drawing enough to power a small city, good plan. interesting that its a mitsi unit too :-)

agreed that its no biggy pulling any particular alt from almost any car. possible exception 4wd 323 turbo. those are tight! :-)

fred.

[rodhog]

Originally Posted by fredio54

easy tiger :



see the bit just before aus important info? it says oz and nz.

its an american site with international usage.

i do find it funny that you state "remove disassemble and reinstall" as something you only have to do on the mitsi...

my sparky would laugh at you saying "not possible" on the rebuild for the maxima alternator... ANYTHING is rebuildable. period. my starter motor rebuilds cost me $10nz each and about 10m. that was before i got the jap spec gear reduction units and never had another problem.

brushes and diodes are generic, they cost little to nothing for the parts, and take a different (but usually insignificant) amount of time to fit depending on the model.

fred.

Note : I refered to Maxima start motor.
Yes everything is rebuildable but labour cost big dollars in the big citys over here. Mainly Sydney. This is why a Boach alternator that has easy to get hold of parts makes a smart choice in moving it too. And As I said beofre to change the regulator and brush set is done by two screws and a quick unplug. No removal.
I did mitsubishi rebuild before and the under bonnet heat temps and Load in summer fryed the Alternator Regulator and it did the same thing again. Produced 13volts but min current about 10amps. Plus again it did not put out a warning light.

My bosch I've only replaced it's Reg pack once and it warned me by flashing my electrical light.

As for your thing about voltage only need so much - True if you have no electrical loads you only need a bit. You only a need few as your ute does not have if any of the loads even a standard 626 had.

As cheif tool stated the Stock unit on the Gd's is boarderline and why they upgraded by Gd1022 model to a 80amp on the auto's. And regeared the normal 70amp unit. Also rewired the setup for it to actually activate the warning light.

This is why the bosch unit it so good. It provides more current down low and constant voltage. Enough so that the power systems does not use the battery as back up or resupply and the battery is always being charged or toped up.

Oh and it shoudl be the same unit. The numbers on my 93 local 2.2L wagon alternator are the same as my 97 model FE DOHC one. Only difference is the plug, it's black V gray

[SABBAi]

Excellent work. Karma, but have to spread rep.....

[roth251]

Do you know if the 110A XR8 alternator is the same size ? I'll definately will be doing the upgrade for the FE3..

[rodhog]

Depends on modle and year but I think most of the newer ones don't quite fit.

EL and I think AU do. and I don't think you need to rotate housing.

I just also have to say this.

Don't go over board either. the standard belt is going ot start to be stretched by it's limits and not by the length I'm talkign about it's quite a thin belt.

Plus 90AMPs is all most shoudl need unles your running a rull comp stereo.

The difference with newer alternators and the later Bosch generation. Is the flat amp output. in effect think of them as full power votls and amps at 1000rpm to 6000rpm.
The misubishi units now are the same but the older ones are not. I've seen the stock 70AMP and latter 75AMP one. it jumps up and down. the GD1022 onward is better longer lasting and stronger but was more to do with the higher gearing it had.

plus on turbo models the under bonnet heat did help to kill the regulator on them.

Roth just make sure you use the bosch type with the regualtor/plu/brush unit is a one peice and two screws hold it in. 90% are like that but I've seen some of the new units on the falcons are a ltitle different 3 screws and I don't think they quite run the same. Not sure why I think something to do with computer controlled - (ECU) regualtor like certain 323 model mazda's

[fredio54]

This car :

http://lh4.ggpht.com/Staffidanie/SDC...Q/DSC_3084.jpg

Killed about 5 alternators on the track. Solution, CAI ah la alternator. ie a 30mm hose from the front of the car to the alternator feeding it with cool air. I liked the idea and may do a similar thing for my turbo ex housing and/or coils/ignitors/etc whatever needs it really. Just thought I'd share.

[chief tool]

That link isnt working for me, however I would believe that it could be an issue.

Underbonnet heat klilled the alternator on the Jeep that I had as a company car...and it got damn hot under the bonnet so hot you couldnt touch the bonnet to open it in summer, hot enouight to destroy the rubber in the engine mount near the exhaust manifold too!

Under normal use the one on the Mx6 would probably hold up, but track use, maybe not.

I recently got enother secondhand alternator off a Falcon EL, this time it was 110A. The bearings in the one that I originally got needed replacing. Another $40 at Pick&Payless.

I think the current specification seems to vary with equipment levels on the ford...I have seen units up to 130A.

And the Bosch units on the same model car, the only physical difference that I could quickly spot on the outside was the lack of a mistubishi 3 diamond star on the back, but it looked like a copy.

apart from the bearing trouble, I have been running the falcon alternator since I started this thread, and its all been going well.
Even managed to jump start a mates car, that had a completely dead battery!
I should really do an idle speed current test to prove how well it works, but its been low on my list of jobs, and I've been really busy.

[roth251]

Looks like I'll be visting Pick&Payless on the weekend. Recently I had a new 70A installed (got stranded) but the lights dip when the AC is turned on and I haven't upgraded the stereo yet and I plan on running a pair of lightforce lights..