Originally Posted by chief tool
I dont think the comparo between the Gs300 and BA astina is enirely fair...
For a start the Gs300 has VVTi, the Astina does not
The Gs300 has a 5 sped Auto. the Astina only 4 speed.
I think if you did more of a stop start run the Gs300, wouldnt be so good, but the technology in the Gs300 is more modern....the mnaufacturers have gone to alot of effort in the last few years to try to keep the same fuel economy as the previous model despite the weight of cars going up substantially.
I rember when a commodore was 1250kG! but the fuel economy was worse than the current model which is closer to 1700kG....
Cars of the same era need to be compared against each other.
that is a true fact.
but my main point is and it's a Point about how every car has different engine- well actually They use to have different engines. Different engine setups, I should use the older model type like a E-320 - that uses less fuel then the Astina
I get back to why the Astina for example and even the 626 was not a great suscess - why it was not used in the GV wagon untill the last last model run
and only continued in the GW wagon
Car makers depending on what the consumer - WAS - EG - US - ASIA - EUROPE - the 3 majors - note Australia was not at that time for majority or cars.
Here in australia we before we were mroe fuel conserned or even Saftey consered - were not big so car makers only used 1 or two sized engines.
the GD is a perfect example. We had fuel to run a FE DOHC engine, We also had the fuel to run a 12 valve carby 2.0L. But instead we got the US F2 - because research by both mazda and Ford Aus - said it would see better to the public it's what they wanted and the huge selling sucess - especially fo FORD was excellent.
the F2 provided - what most australias wanted an overall Lazy engine - with plenty of torque to cruze around town in. Plus coupled to the more comon Automatic transmission.
We did not get any of the Japanese engines from F6 to FE - note only F2's in japan were from FORD PROBES.
Come to the 2nd gen - we get only the KL- because the market says no to just 4 cylidner and I know what you think but celica sold. But it had it's market share it was seller already. I don't sell people Mx-6's - I sell them celicas because it does not have dizzy problem, or overheating due to poor care as problem. the KL is wholey reliable - when kept right it can't go wrong.
But 2nd hand market means little to car makers. Mx-6 and 626 and along with alot of cars at that time - Mitsubishi galant - Eunos 500 etc .most people asking for more USEABLE power.
This comes with Economey
Long stroke - Square motors make more low -mid range power then short strokes.
Always have - This means less revs - less power.
Torque = MAX cylinder filling. - it's why car makers go for flat torque curves - More consistant cylidner filling - = more over all power.
Short stroke V6's don't do this.
but what about the old Buick v6 - pushrod 3.8L it had every thing down low and nothing up top and it was short stroke but it had it's max cylinder filling in mid range - due to it's large bore size. It woudl rev too but due to original restraints it didn't have the camshaft or the internal bits to allow it to rev up to a range where it could turn that cylidner filling into large amounts of power. it's why VN only needs mild cam and few bits to make a carp lod more power, in comparisson to it's latter counter part. - Per percentage.
the new Alloytec - same modifications nowhere near as far.
Now yes having lots of top end power is great when you are carrying Bugger all weight. but to get the saveings at the bowser you have to be driving it at such low revs a less overall pwoer full car making more efficent torque at them same revs will use the same amount of fuel.
Brings me back to the Astina v6 Ba. and let me put it back to the station wagon.
GV1023 1993 - 7 seater - 1305Kg only waht 110HP - 84Kw F2 torque 179NM Max Redline 6K - cut out 6200rpm - 180km/h speed limtier can sit on it.
BA astina KF 1994-V6 1255KG 104KW 183NM Redline 6700rpm cutout 7000rpm
CD. 30 or around that got figure somewhere
Both used simialr automatic transmission with astina later model with lower final drive.
Wagon city -11 highway 7.6
Astina city 8.5 highway 11.5
Now I owned both cars top condition - neither modified and it didn't take long to notice difference in petrol.
Note - Same driver - Was used by my mother to and from work - averag 22.4 km each day 5 days a week
Wagon was using on average 91RON - about $25 to fill each at say $1.10
Astina left took less then $30 a week.
Now you may say driver - NOTE dirver is a Woman - and has driven the same route over almost 10 years.
She noted in the first week- We have Hill in sydney it's very vertical - it's quite steep - not many cars can climb up with out a big push or revs. trucks slow down to 30- 40km/h if they can' speed up to it.
My mother "Note YOu need to give the astina alot of gas to get it up the hill at tempe"
Never said that about wagon. A heavier car less power even max torque.
All because the torque is there.
Go look at even honda's Square motor's - more and more motors All square large capacity 4 cylinders replacing v6's in places that were comon.
If they aint' square there are close to it or slgihlty long stroke or longstroke.
Using Variable valve timing - lift and other bits of cam majic to achive - complete cylidner fillling across the range.
Turbo chargers help but where a K series used VIRS to help create a flatter torque curve it could not hide it's need to rev to perrform. Great on a race track useless in econmical family car.
NEw Aurion makes 200kw's but only needs around 2000rpm to drive it around town and not much more on the highway.
My Astina replacement - Mazda2
Want econ - try $15 a week same trip NO BS at $1.30 or last week $1.38
1.5L - slighlty by .2mm longstroke - VVT engine - only needs at most 2500rpm to travel to work and back. With auto, It carrys more people now too.
But when you rev it - it goes but it won't get neat a GE mx-6.
As noted by Sik-turk and Ive said it you want power you have to pay for it.
more max cylidner filling = more power = more fuel.
It's also why if you thrash some new cars they really really really really really SUCK THE GAS.