Standalone management

[Turk]

Well just on locking maps. When it is a very popular setup, say Ls1 with etc turbo. 2jz with etc. And this tuner(who it is his job and makes a living off) has spent 20-30 hours on each of his basemaps but only charges the customer maybe 3 hours worth(and his basemap premium that he has used 50 times by now) for fine tuning. If another tuner then sees this map and starts giving to his other customers, well it is like burning a CD .

[TX5_turbo88]

Turk, what was the full cost of setting up your MS?

The idea for a standalone seems great for big modifications, but in my situation, it ain't worth it (i only want a new turbo). (its just like when i see a mazda 808, 1300 or 929 for $2000 on ebay and i sooo want to buy it, but hey, I'm a student with a part time job, and in the end i know its not worth it).

Fredio, thanks for the heads up. the more i hear about this MS makes me wonder...

[Turk]

Tx5 Turbo I got my Megasquirt unit delivered from the united states to my door for $400. It cost me another $30 in extra wiring and solder and a sensor(that you can get for free from any Holden commonwhore).

That was all.

You will not get for that cheap(that is so ready to go) because mine was a bulk buy BUT it does not mean you will not find ready to go for 1st gen's from the states for around that price. just wait for the right opportunity ive seen ready to go MS's for 1st gens for about $500-$600US. I believe that was straight swap for old ECU etc as well. Browse american for sale sections here and on Probetalk.com from time to time and see what the compatiblity is between what years from US to AUS mx6/probe models.

[fredio54]

Or, of course, you can build it yourself and have it installed for 200us+wbo2 or 300us+wbo2 for ms2. That takes time, patience, and more time though :-)

[rodhog]

Fred

I'll tell you something right - now there is no use in telling people on internet forums.
To Try do things, So many on the internet are Dreamers.

They don't have it.
I admire some people - like Turk, when I met him I thought he might actually do it. Most people would say nah he's dreamer.

But alot are I've meet them at meet ups. They all talk but - they all end up selling off the car.
because they realsie what waste of time or money it will be.

For example Students - Why are they wasting time on a car, when they going to have to pay back Hex fees and other payments.

you may not like they way I tell it to people. But end of the day Not many actually get around to doing it. Finishing stuff off - it's in the papers heaps - PROJECT not finished.


Alot of the Time all these projects could have been finished if they didn't wait around to do things cheaper or Try to skimp here and there.

It's my opinion - because I've seen it all the time.

You noted lockable maps-
You can't be fully legal in NSW and Vic without a ECU that can be locked.

Understand we have laws - They are tightening.

What's a Uni student who goes gets his Tx5 flying - gets pulled up by EPA it's not legal and has $5K fees to pay just in fines by the EPA going to do ?
Oh he spent only $3K on making it quick and now the car is worth less then the Fines - Yeah right.



Oh and Take note.

PEOPLE don't hit the guy who pays for there Dole check at the Pub or lets just say this.
Most people do things for me if they know whats good for them.
More People in the know will back me up because they know like me if they want to make money and save time - which for people like me is money.
You fark around.


Take note, I'd like to see some young guy seriosuly try and do a full installed - tune on weekend and still have daily runner reliable so reliable he's not going to worry if the car fails on him. Seriously I would not mind.
I'll just care when he turns up to work - late because he had to take the bus or train. All because the tune was wrong or it would not start.
Then he loose his job, or suffers because he's having to get earlier to take the bus or train.

Your dealing with young people who don't have money - to have more then one car in most cases. It's why they own 20 year old cars. They are below $10,000. 5K in most cases when they bought it.
I bet no many have there car insurred. Let alone above market value.
I've got my 95 wagon at $16,000. Stupid but I can do it.
whats some poor student going to do? turn a reliable car into headache.

Because some guy on a Forum Said.

Oh use this it's great. It's cheap it does the job.

It may do all that but.

You have NO support, No backup. No warrenty when something does go wrong.

What then ?

Yeah you have point - MS is nice and all. But it's like playing potential.
It may do work out
but are the risks worth the outcome.

I know where I stand, it's why when I leave to cheak on my staff in 40 mins I go to the driveway- I have more then 1 car available to me. I know it will start - I know it will run.
In fact tonight I have a EVO availalbe to me. With LINK ECU - installed tuned right and safe. It won't miss a beat.
Now tell me the owner should have used MS. 3 days drive in drive out. 260AWHP still the same 18 months on.

[fredio54]

Turk : no cold start issues. post install, happy as larry.
Me : no tune, started cold, started hot, happy as larry.
Feck : beating wrx and evos in rallies, happy as larry.
Thousands (not hundreds) of MSers, running flawlessly, not missing a beat, happy as larry.

Lockable ECU's draconian, but OK, sure...

Best available current Link ECU : 100 times WORSE fuel resolution than MS2

NO support : Most posts answered within minutes, world wide support team, someone always awake and ready to help :-) Commercial stuff just can not compete with even pseudo open source stuff :-)

I agree, many internet folk are dreamers. Some are not. Give them the best info, not a "you have to spend 2kAU on an ems or it isn't worth having." MS2 outperforms many expensive ECU's PERIOD.

Don't give out bad info (repeatedly) and I won't nail your arse to the wall for you.

Fred.

[Turk]

Rod has a point about dedication. Sometimes if someone were to tackle a MS setup they could give up halfway because it is after all harder then getting it done for you. Most guys on here are young and even a little setback will hit them hard.

Still Rod the thing about MS being so popular there are plenty of reliable people who have them ready to go and give support that the big companies will never give. I wouldnt be ready for the learning curve to build my own MS, set it up and install. But having one ready to solder in with about 1-2 hours worth of work for $400, compared to 2k to get a different system that someone else installs, Im happy with my choice.

[rodhog]

Turk as long as your happy that's all the matters.

THe truth be known the reason most people don't get the support is because, they ain't payers.
Ms is good for the baby street budget guys. But you won't see end over end compeition guys using it. It's as simple as that.
I work with workshops constantly and not all the same and all customers get full support on and off the track. The problem is most people just turn up once and then disapear. Because they all have better ideas. That's fine but when they come back in with problem and they wonder why costs a fortune because they have bent or burnt valves or cracked pistons ?
What are you going to do.

I build a motor up but it blows up on the street or dyno because they didn't want to pay for me run it up on a engine dyno with a engine management system, I knew or liked.
It's why I don't offer insurance for it, How can I, or anyone else.

Fed you can't Nail me because I don't give a dam, I'm just telling these people the way it is. You don't like it bad luck.

Come to this fed with your Ute in clubsprint class and see if it can line up with some of the best workshops in Aus. Show me how great budget MS is going to do it for you.

I'll be there in support of friends and customers of the workshops I deal with. From Rx-3 to S2000

Superlap Australia - Time Attack

I'm sure there is going to be alot of guys with MS in the street class.

[TX5_turbo88]

I'm gonna take it that the 'student' issue rodhog is talking about refers to me...

Rodhog, i can agree with your statement but to a certain extent. Anyone, including students have the right to purchase any car and modify it or blow it up for that matter, even if it means they have a hole in their wallet. That is the owner's predicament, be it stupid, yes it may be.

HECS bills is something that is so negligible, that it couldn't affect me (or anyone) the slightest. I dont care if they take out $10 or so dollars a week when earning a decent salary...I feel sorry for the people (like my sister) who do a honours year (which is around the $10,000 dollar mark) and to people who do postgraute degrees.

Yeah i'm a student. That ain't holding me back from doing anything like you said about delaying and end up selling etc. That has absolutely nothing to do with being a 'student'
I know plenty of people who have full time jobs, work on a car and make slower progress than i would do, and many of them still sell/abandon their beloved projects because they can't afford to keep it.

Finally, I'm not spending thousands of dollars on my TX5 to make it faster and end up blowing it (well i hope not hehe). I make sure before i do everything, i know exaclty how this is going to affect me financially and the impact it will have on my car as it will be my daily driver for years. I dont want to part with it. Around christmas time, i had enough money to buy a 1993 180sx SR20, but chose to keep my Tx5 as by having a slightly newer and more expensive car doesn't solve anything in my situation (Although it would have been kickass to be driving that black 180 now!!).

All I want to do is update my turbo as my seals are about gone (i'm burning oil) and i'd want to do a t25/ t28 conversion (hopefully Scott still has his ), put together my cooler piping, remove my air con, fabricate a new intake pipe and get the woo's chip done. I plan on doing this in June when i have the time...Why am i writing this anyway? I dont have to prove anything to anyone, especially to people from a car forum website....

Peace.

[AusMX6]

Just to throw my 2 cents in

I have Wolf 3d V4, I can't fault it, works perfect - I make good power on it on a internally std Fe-dohc with a gt2560r turbo. Excellent driveability and I can't fault the blokes at Rank Rotary who did the tuning - I wouldn't bother tuning a car myself (about from the rough starting). I got the engine to start and idle, then sent it over on a tow truck to be setup by a professional.

...............

Simple fact is most mx'ers are tightass's who want the cheapest fix, not the best - for that reason second hand turbos on adaptors with management like MS will thrive - yes it works, it may not be as good, but thats all they can afford

ANYone who thinks cheap second hand parts, diy built ecu's and home/street tune is better then a custom manifold with aftermarket managment and a professionally tuned setup has got to be on drugs

if you are happy with the cheap set up then be happy with it but don't try and sell it off as being better in ANY way shape or form

[TX5_turbo88]

cool...and yeah i heard rank rotary are big endorsers of the Wolf 3d.
and also cool to hear your running the FE-Dohc with GT2560r setup. What power figures are you making by the way?

[Turk]

Originally Posted by AusMX6

if you are happy with the cheap set up then be happy with it but don't try and sell it off as being better in ANY way shape or form

Sometimes the cheap setup is better though as Fred explained. MS2's features and capabilities is well up there with the higher end ECU models, and MS1 hangs with the lower models. You dont always get the best when you pay the highest premium not when you pay extra for something you dont need.

Mx6(and family) owners are tightarse yes, that is why 90% of them bought the mx6 in the first place. It is a cheap car and as such spending big money for at the end of the day a cheap car that is not going to make big power is nothing more then a waste. Until we someone (Aussie/Kiwi local not a Yank) comes on and says they are after a 300kwatw+ mx6 and all the bits that go with it then maybe a $3000 ECU would be a decent investment. Then again there are more then a handful of guys in the states here on mx6.com and probetalk.com with 500+hp and running Megasquirt and happy to do so.

You can spend $4000 or so on a Greddy or HKS turbo manifold and exhaust setup (lets say for a common car) or spend $1500 getting one custom made from a reputable exhaust shop, and both will work fine and last. And with the custom job it will fit 100% despite your modifications of what might be in the way. Now, the same goes for EFI because of DIY EFI systems like Megasquirt which keep getting better and better.

What would performance shops or big ECU companies say to me boosting my KL. They would either say go somewhere else or charge a big premium. When for a fraction of the cost I (and every other mx6 owner) have an option of getting a great system ready to install onto our cars. Motec or Haltech doesnt do that. You will spend $600 on tuning to get a basemap and the starting settings all made up. Im still getting a pro to tune my car, I dont trust that myself, but im happy with the MS and would advise anyone else to go the same route if they have pockets with bottoms.

[TX5_turbo88]

very true turk. I agree

[fredio54]

Rod has a point about dedication. Sometimes if someone were to tackle a MS setup they could give up halfway because it is after all harder then getting it done for you. Most guys on here are young and even a little setback will hit them hard.

I believe I said that above, but : You have to put the time and effort into ms for it to be a success. It's not for everyone. You can have a good system cheap, but you have to put in work. Or you can have good system for many $ and put in no work. You can't have a good system cheap and put in no work. No free lunches.

Originally Posted by rodhog

THe truth be known the reason most people don't get the support is because, they ain't payers.

Seems plain stupid to pay for something you can get for free ;-)

Ms is good for the baby street budget guys. But you won't see end over end compeition guys using it. It's as simple as that.

They are doing it for the racing, not for the car. They don't want to spend the time and love on it to make it perfect. They want to plug in and go. They are making the right choice.

because they have bent or burnt valves or cracked pistons ?

MS has never been responsible for that. In fact, all the people on this site with burnt valves and cracked pistons are on OEM ecu's and the one that defies that rule (AMD) readily admits it was his fault (driving the car hard in cold air at night with railed injectors). MS users care and make sure it's right. $$ can do the same thing. You can't have performance and reliability without either CARE OR DOLLARS, but you speak like you can ONLY have it with dollars and this is 100% NOT true.

I build a motor up but it blows up on the street or dyno because they didn't want to pay for me run it up on a engine dyno with a engine management system, I knew or liked.

If it blows up, the tuner is 100% responsible (unless it was mechanical fault). IE if that happened to you, you suck. period.

I'm just telling these people the way it is.

Nope, you are misleading them and telling them they can not do it without dollars. I'm saying you can trade dollars for time and I my funny looking friend am right!

Superlap Australia - Time Attack

I'm sure there is going to be alot of guys with MS in the street class.

Super Lap 2008 at Pukekohe: Results -- Performance Car | Modified drift, drag and import machines

That's funny, all evos etc ;-) Will be worth a laugh when the mighty ute shows up on that list! :-)

ANYone who thinks cheap second hand parts, diy built ecu's and home/street tune is better then a custom manifold with aftermarket managment and a professionally tuned setup has got to be on drugs

Sounds like you are on drugs mate! Can I get the phone number of your dealer? It must be really good stuff ;-)

if you are happy with the cheap set up then be happy with it but don't try and sell it off as being better in ANY way shape or form

Is MOTEC the best? YES. Has MS2 been tested side by side on the engine dyno with MOTEC? YES. Did the MS2 unit make equal power and have equal timing accuracy and fueling accuracy to the BEST? YES.

So, why is it cheaper then?

Does MS have all the bells and whistles that you might ever want? NO. Can MS do sequential control for a perfect idle with HUGE injectors? NO. Is MS an open box, wire in turn key solution? Can be, but with increased price only. Usually it takes time and effort to make it all come together. IE you have to understand it. This is why it is cheaper, and this is why most ignorant lazy fools don't bother. I'd like to sit your pro tuned car on a dyno and measure it's parameters myself. You may find it's not as perfect as driving it has led you to believe. Or it may be spot on. You may never know :-p

cool to hear your running the FE-Dohc with GT2560r setup. What power figures are you making by the way?

From garrets site : 330crank hp max : TurboByGarrett.com - Catalog

Sometimes the cheap setup is better though as Fred explained. MS2's features and capabilities is well up there with the higher end ECU models, and MS1 hangs with the lower models. You dont always get the best when you pay the highest premium not when you pay extra for something you dont need.

Well said.

[AusMX6]

TX5_Turbo88 - I made 137kw's at the front wheels at a little over 5000rpm on 9 psi of boost on 95 octane fuel on a 27 degree day - so on Ranks advice we chose caution and left it at that until time proved it. That was over 2 years ago, and it hasn't missed a beat

I choose wolf based on my research, then hunted down a workshop I trusted who was familiar with the product (and even better that they have a fondness for Mazda's)

------------------

Turk - I paid $1400 for my wolf - thats harness, sensors, ecu, laptop software etc. Fitted myself, and when ever I had a question the blokes at wolf3d were only ever a phone call away. When the engine was up and running (using a modified BPT map) tuning at Rank was only $350 as they new the ecu back the front making the whole process very quick simple and safe.

"It is a cheap car and as such spending big money for at the end of the day a cheap car that is not going to make big power is nothing more then a waste"

based on that comment you might aswell sell the mx and save up for something else - some of us (like Cam, Rod, Myself) prefer to do the job right - regardless of the value of the vehicle.

No one expects that everyone else on here needs to go and spend a huge wad of cash copying us - but when you use a cheaper alternative, don't claim its better.

Even you turk surely understand that point?

You use justification such as MS ever improving - in the same way wolf provide registered owners with firmware updates as req'd, but not that often, testimony to the better R&D that went in to the products initially.

Likewise you point to 4000 vs 1500 exhaust/manifold - I would expect the 4000 system will out perform and out last the cheaper system, not by 250% percent as you would expect with the price differance but by probably 10-20%, again testimony to better R&D that all comes at a price.

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Again my point - nothing wrong with being cheap just don't says it better *shrug*

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I'm happy with my setup , I made good power, with a reliable setup using quality brand name trusted components, after all, how much does it cost to do a job twice or repair a blown engine....or the cost of towing it 2500km's home when it all craps itself out in the middle of nowhere and the nearest shop hasn't even heard of the XYZ parts you used - no more comments from me on this topic as I have nothing to prove