Standalone management

[TX5_turbo88]

What are people's opinions on standalone ECU's in regards to mod's like a bigger turbo on 10-15 PSI, bigger injectors, fuel pump or rising rate fuel pressure regulator?

I know it can be done with the woo's chip with the AFM, but I'm just curious to to see how much economy and power can be made with the various maps and settings of a fully programmable ECU.

I've heard many stories of people gaining up to 30-50 hp (not just F2T's) with same boost levels, just by switching to a standalone ECU with a better tune.

I know there are additional costs but some people spend heaps of $$$ just to get small gains like porting...

BTW, what is the economy like with the woo's mod? Anyone care to state their car settings and give a rough figure of km's per tank??

Thanks guys

[Turk]

Personally for going a fair bit further then what OEM did, ie a bigger turbo+extra fuel, I always think standalone is the way to go. Though can be pricey, and leave you with law issues regarding tuning/emmissions etc.

Im not sure how worse it is, dont think you will get a definate answer as it will depend on your setup, but a standalone will get better fuel economy then a woos chip. Min $1000 more cost though . It depends on how far you want to go.

[chief tool]

I have woo's ECU and the fuel economy really didnt change much from before I changed the ECU.

it's still pretty rich in the mid range, once the wideband gets fitted, i'll have a play around with a few things and see if I can fix that in the short term until I get the MS.

with regards to your original question...I get about 12L/100 and thats all city driving...and I am not scared to give it a stick full, but its only in short bursts.
If I drive like a grandma, I can get down to 10.5L/100...
The change to the ECU has probably added 0.5L/100, but at the same time I upped the boost from 7 to 15...so considering the extra gain, the fuel penalty is low.

[rodhog]

It's very simple

Yuor dealing with a factory ECU by Denso that's in effect past it's used by date.
but having said that.

A microtech LT10 or what every model is out now. Is a imporvement, but you also loose out.
Lower end aftermarket ECU's are not as good with Cold idel startup or the like.
BUt there are many new models out for a fraction more that are better.

They run more like a a full decent ECU.

Car ECU's have not really advanced too far in there mapping.
They just got a bit faster. The big difference and it's seen in the GD1021 to Gd1022 and then the GE's both 4 and 6.

is the Add on's the extra bits they control.

Even now you find cars 95% of anything goes into them. But the running of the engine has not hcanged dramaticly.

For economey your best bet is to have ECU with closed loop option and Tune it on that.
So you have ECU aiming for a perfect 14.7 to 1 ratio on light cruise. It makes a massive difference on highway compared to one with out. BUt you will only see it long term.

Alot of economey in ECU's is from removal of saftey aspects.
Overfeul for both sudden excelleration and Turbo cooling effect.

For example.
On - stock 10PSI - rear turbine - no colour
On a Unichip - piggyback give it a hit - minor colour 13psi
Microtech - more tuned up - after any decent drive mild or light it's RED glow.

all because extra fuel used to help keep it cooler and less advanced timming has been removed.

I had woos' chip in one - car it was fine it was 90% stock.

It's a choice thing. Of what you want to achive.

if your going to add things - you can't got past a aftermarket ECU.

dollar for dollar it's the best thing.

Especially today at the low cost of decent ones with such options of aux inputs and outputs.

you dont' have to spend big dollars. 10 years agoI went unichip because Motec was over $6000 and cheapest was LT8 at $2200 installed.

I did LT8 at $1200 two year ago.

I did Adaptronic which IMO is one of the BEST. I can't get enough of the thigns you can add and do to it. I admit a bit more A Haltech has it covered but IMO it was not worth it.
It cost $1400 installed.

[Turk]

Just to throw it out there, I have never had an issue with my cold starts enrichments on my Megasquirt . First time, every time.

[rodhog]

yes but a a Haltech or Adaptronic makes a megasquirt look like toy.

As one Major tuner in Syney discribed it - a tightarse IT guys ECU. Mind you I was seeing him about a tuning a Autronic SM2 for a RB30.

Megasquirts cold start up - is no better then a microtech.

It lacks full tables.

With a Motec, autronic0 adaptronic EMS and some model Haltechs. You have multipule tables to set up or enrichment probgrams. All on msot 16 X 16 plus table.
It alows you to fine tune your cold start up like full factory ECU, so even after say 2 hours car is mildly warm but has lost soem heat - It doesn't run up on lean or overenrichment, on light throttle or heavy throttle.

But of course the big issue is - tuning time. Top end models will have auto tune feature you set perameters and it adjusts all this over time.

Megasquirt is nice for the price but think of the overall cost of it? Are you really ahead.

Go out ot Compact attack at the WSID on may 18 Turk. Look around for Megasquirt - see how many are using it ?

[TX5_turbo88]

Interesting points. From many conversations, i get the gist of this:
autronic being the top of the line system for it's functions and autotune and whatnot. Haltech is very easy to use and has excellent features and good price, and that microtech isn't very user friendly. I'm not one to say it's right or wrong.(i've never tuned an aftermarket ECU). I must agree with rodhog. I would rather pay an extra $200 and get a haltech .(there is a haltech e6x in the ebay finds whichi linked). Megasquirt has never appealled to me all that much.
I have yet to hear anything bad about a wold 3d as well. I think the important thing is to find a tuner who is an expert in tuning with a particular ECU.

Having said that, i also agree with rodhog with our ecu's being out of date. The way i see it, if i spend $300 on a woo's chip, i might as well buy a second hand ecu of some sort. and be able to tune in real time. Also haltech have a cool wideband o2 sensor for $99 lol

[Turk]

You are infront from the price, very much so. A Haltech e6k which is what $1400ish brand new plus you need to get new sensors and a wiring loom made up plus get it installed. haltech is hardly going to give you step by step instructions. Will cost at least $2000 to buy it and get it in before you get any tuning done even. Even the most basic of basic microtech or EMS will cost $1500 installed and tuned. And does nothing special over what the MS can do.

My MS unit cost me $400Au delivered, I only needed 1 extra sensor which was $10 from Holden, wiring diagram and loom all ready, and took me <2 hours to install taking my time. Then I spend $300 on some tuning to get it perfect from the very close basemap. As soon as I got it going, it started right up and if I change anything on my system such as injectors I can change the settings for it in my garage in about 30 seconds. Instead of needing a tuner with his superduper cable with its lockable code on the ECU(yes I know they are all arent like this, but Tuners do lock codes often for their own protection from sooky stupid customers). Now this would not be possible without other MS users (My case Radar) who set it up but the fact is they do exist. And on my $7000 car, I dont want to buy a $2k ECU when for that price I could get a ball bearing turbo. It is a cheap IT ECU, and it is awesome . I got the most basic MS, and there is better (next model up costing $100-$150 extra not $1500 extra) and it is always getting better.

Noone uses it because 1. they dont know it exists
2. They dont have anyone/company who sets them up for their car

I know I wouldnt of gotten a MS if I had to get all my starting settings setup (or paid someone too) and built the thing myself.

[TX5_turbo88]

haltech may not give you step by step instructions but they do give you a diagram of how to wire it in. It's up to the user to know which wire goes where. What do you mean on having a loom made up with additional sensors?? It comes with the loom and you need to wire it. Also on popular cars you can purchase 'plug and play' adaptors so there is no wiring involved.
Are you talking about additional auxillary sensors such as a wide band or knock unit? Or the air temp, coolant temp and throttle position sensors?
Also, haltech have been around since the mid 80's. i don't thing megasquirt have been around as long as that. I cant see the justification of how a MS is just as advanced as an autronic/haltech...

[Turk]

But you see, mx6's arent on the list of popular cars. Not all standalone units work with stock bosch sensors, I know my mate had to swap alot of his sensors over when he got his standalone in.

In advancedness you have to think of what features a Haltech has over a Megasquirt unit. What can it do that MS cant? Im not trying to convince you to buy a Megasquirt, just that Rod mentioned cold start issues, and I just threw out there that I have not had one cold start issue ever. And I also have never touched my cold start settings. Megasquirt is just as good for a basic setup (1% of mx6's are modified beyond fairly basic in the big scheme of things) as any much more expensive unit.

If you need 1400cc injectors and everything else that a 1500hp car needs to keep up, then you will need a top of the range $3000 unit. Look at it in what you gain per dollar. If you have a $5000 budget for your build. Why not save that $1500 for a fuel system or a better quality turbo or plumbing or whatever. I could have gone with a more expensive ECU and spent another $1500, but then I would have to sacrifice that $1500 from somewhere and I probably wouldnt of gotten rego/insurance and my fuel setup.

[TX5_turbo88]

I totally understand where your coming from. If you scored your MS for $400 thats pretty good, especially if it does the job properly.
Its just that buying and assembling a MS reminds me of all those DIY boost controller,air fuel ratio, fuel cut defender kits that you can buy, that aren't as good as the real thing. and i think that's why people are put off from them. I hadn't heard of MS up until a year ago and i doubt places like JPC, Maztech, Rajab and Bresciani will even touch them.
The bigger companies have proper retailers, tech support and engineers who go all around the world to give out seminars on how to use these things.

[rodhog]

I thin kyour all wrong

Majority of sensors are two types on Jap cars Denso - toyota or Misubishi

Majority of aftermarket decent ECU's haltech microtech and the rest. When oyu order them tell them the engine it's set up to read them sensors.

my microtech needed nothing other then being told it's for a Mazda F2T it's sesnors are the same as the BPT


The difference between MS and the rest is development support.

I get support from my installers and tuners- anywhere anytime.

If iwanted to move my LT8 to a new car I'd call microtech ask if it can be done send the unit for change of sensor reading and then reinstall.

90% of units are all the same in the way they are installed in the same model car.

It's more dependant on the car it self.

For - example, What is the major difference between the sensors of a F2T and FE DOHC. NOTHING. major- crank angle - Map (you add ) TPS and injecotrs are al lthe same
now go to a SR20 - it's the same except for injector impedence I think it was.

It's when you have to add other issues - VICS or VRIS control the mazdas Vtec in honda or intake timming on the the RB25.

This is where development makes a big difference. It's where a bigger table of mapping is handy - more enrichment points - more adjustment.

Anyone - how has driven a Micotech'd car that's got alot of quick air flow variation will always find a minor flat or fuel spot.
But same engine on Motec you won't find it.

Factory usually uses Airflow meters to avoid such problems.Or they use the autotune type setups.

Turk - you note cost. End of the day - Everyone is playing with bomb effectivly here.
But when you consdier adding such a turbo setup - it's like trying to run it with out adjustable ECU. It's a waste

You don't always need to go hi tech to get it done.

It just depends on whats required

Tuners don't like some owners playing with it because they stuff it up. Then they don't like paying to get it fixed.
Reason I like adaptronic is you can just swap files on over on the laptop with ease and you can go back. All the big systems run similar. But you pay for the ease.

Microtech's are biggest sellers not just on cost but because it's not special cable - just program but it's avialble from microtech.

Beside here in Aus you can only tune in place on a DYNO. Why would any compnay sell there product to public if they don't have dyno. Tuning is not hard nor are any of the ECU's to use in terms of tuning. Maybe EMS - but I have not touch one its Autronic Haltch microtech and adaptronic.

Megasquirt is unit that does the job for some, what it lacks for be is control
In that people who assemble it. Not hard -hell I've done Computer Enginerring I'd sleep through it. But only takes one solder to fail, and your race day is gone.
That's big reason it's not used.

ECU failure is a very rare problem for most people who race. It's the cost and control used that it is that way.

If here in aus we didn't have such a large range and option available to us, we might be using megasquirt more often. Sure our tightarse Kiwi brothers like that stuff, the answer is in the price. But haivng seen some of there so called super great cars they are nothing on stuff we run here.

[Turk]

As always Rod you make a valid arguement and I dont disagree with anything you said. I do believe tuners have the right to lock their tune, 1. It is there intellectual property and 2. there are heaps of customers that [fizzle] it up then come back and complain.

Rod you have been doing this car thing for a while, you have the contacts then many dont. You know where to go. My experience with other standalones is my dickhead(read, very stupid and ethnic) wog cousins/mates who go into a shop and pay big on everything. And bad service is what I just picked up as what all performance shops do, they dont want to look at anything again without paying another $500. So if it is a small issue you could fix at home, you have to wait for it to be a big issue with big cost/profit before they will look at it. Not many performance shops I have seen will touch your car for even 2 minutes for free even when you are a previous customer.

I trust Radar's soldering . But I wouldnt trust my own.

[fredio54]

MS lacks control? MS1 on high res is decent, but not brilliant. MS2 is better than a lot of the big dollar ECUs out there! You say it lacks adjustability? Base ms2 has more than 1000 adjustable items!! MS2Extra has even more. More is not necessarily = better either! Honing the main basic tables etc to a fine level is the way to go. After that the various trims do very little.

Most of the big names just throw hp/money at the problem and use massive tables = takes ages to tune. MS tables have adjustable axis such that you can fit your data points to the curve of response much better. 12x12 with movable bins > 20x20 without!

Basically, MS2Extra kicks arse (for now mu ha ha ha) and is an excellent choice if you don't require sequential (more than 200hp/litre on a single set of injectors = sequential is a good idea, but people make much more than that and are happy... staged injectors are a good alternative for those who want stupid power levels and daily drivability)

The quality of the box is as good as the dude that stuck it together. Mine is excellent. They are as reliable as the dude that stuck it together. Time will tell about me ;-)

Locking maps... strange concept. Any map is specific to the exact setup on the car anyway. Anyone that puts in a base tune and walks away does not deserve to be paid for it.

It's not hard to tune from scratch and it's not rocket science.

I didn't even read a lot of that, but MS2 = FTW regardless of price up to 200hp/litre or beyond with staged injection.

Turk, next time something like this is getting one sided, flick me a link :-)

Fred.

[fredio54]

Originally Posted by rodhog

Megasquirt is unit that does the job for some, what it lacks for be is control
In that people who assemble it. Not hard -hell I've done Computer Enginerring I'd sleep through it. But only takes one solder to fail, and your race day is gone.
That's big reason it's not used.

ECU failure is a very rare problem for most people who race. It's the cost and control used that it is that way.

Tell that to this guy :

www.MSruns.com &bull; View topic - Daniel Feck, Mitsubishi 6G72 powered Lancer

Beating WRXs is fun when it cost you 3k ;-)

Sure our tightarse Kiwi brothers like that stuff, the answer is in the price. But haivng seen some of there so called super great cars they are nothing on stuff we run here.

How many of your teeth are fake replacements after being knocked out in pub brawls? :-) It's not about being tight. Plenty of people are quick to throw money around as fast as they can. Does it mean they have a better tune... not necessarily...

Forum title :

MX6.com > Regional Forums > Australia & New Zealand > Standalone management

Maybe I should keep a closer eye on you so you don't spin too many more lies ;-)

Fred.