Proper antilag, thoughts, comments, suggestions?

[rodhog]

Originally Posted by fredio54

some stats i calculated for you :

rodhogs percentage of posts with karma : 3.5 - 5.3%
mine : 19%
sleepcounter (hes still a member to me) : 18.5 - 24.6%
gavin : 53.8 - 80.7% (thats how you do it!!) (i love quoting that figure)
sick : 7.8% +++ (2000+ ? whats the real number? this is too low)
carcenomy : 20.7 - 31.1

etc etc

.

Oh so sorry I didn't realise your a internet Proffessor. Dam it's so hard to see
On the net.

Oh I don't have Karma nah - yes I don't post to help people true. I don't, I only do it some of the time.
I only build cars for REAL world events not internet pages. I do it for Magazine awards DVD's etc. Oh I forgot, I'm on the internet. Crap.

I should not work on people cars - I'm wasting my time, they pay me to fix and detail there cars to win awards at shows and I know nothing.
I'm so sorry. MS is greatest - No one in australia Uses it. No race team here I have ever seen at any major even including V8 supercars - you do know about them don't you. Oh we don't use Ms - we must idiots. Why do we use Autronic and Motec.
Oh dam why did we build up a Rx-7 20B and run a Motec - we could have used a Mega ??? waht ever.

Oh need karma.
Oh don't worry.

I'll be happy enoguh to leave you alone and I'll just be glad to see the car I've worked on or build on or just be associated with - Be in many magazines on covers or in DVD's. They won't be on the internet, on intent pages with list of modifications and Mythical 1.4 mile times and lap times.

I think I need to go study up on how to rebuild this new motor it's only 2JZ but I need to go find a a answer on the internet, as have Race engine builder work with me is no good he got no Karma.

I'll leave you with the yanks and laugh.

[fredio54]

Originally Posted by rodhog

Oh I don't have Karma nah - yes I don't post to help people true. I don't, I only do it some of the time.

perhaps you have missed the point then, thats what forums like this are all about... have you met fraud? you two might get along great.

I only build cars for REAL world events not internet pages. I do it for Magazine awards DVD's etc. Oh I forgot, I'm on the internet. Crap.

Yahoo! Photos - mx622t's Photos

sure, thats why this is your photo account, and the only glossed up car in it is R/C :

http://us.f2.yahoofs.com/users/44559...o3W5GBvvUv1tUv

I should not work on people cars - I'm wasting my time, they pay me to fix and detail there cars to win awards at shows and I know nothing.

it would seem that way, thats for sure.

I'm so sorry. MS is greatest - No one in australia Uses it. No race team here I have ever seen at any major even including V8 supercars - you do know about them don't you. Oh we don't use Ms - we must idiots. Why do we use Autronic and Motec.
Oh dam why did we build up a Rx-7 20B and run a Motec - we could have used a Mega ??? waht ever.

once again, you are showing your ignorance. ms is widely used in australia just like the rest of the world. the reason pro teams use big $$ solutions is speed (its pre built and they dont wanna spend the time thinking (gasp) about what they are doing on such a low level scale), and some of the features that real race teams need like extensive datalogging etc arent available out of the box with ms also.

I'll be happy enoguh to leave you alone and I'll just be glad to see the car I've worked on or build on or just be associated with - Be in many magazines on covers or in DVD's. They won't be on the internet, on intent pages with list of modifications and Mythical 1.4 mile times and lap times.

no, no i wont, because i dont read glossy mags anymore, i havent for a long time, why : because largely they are full of hype, mis information and bollocks. more 2 pack paint than 2 step revlimiters...

they also often have "making around XXX hp" stamped on them. you'll note that my estimates are based on real datalogs of injector duty and afr, they are qualified with "this is probably crap but..." and even with all that are probably pretty accurate. they also seem to match up to the results other members are getting with similar setups...

I think I need to go study up on how to rebuild this new motor it's only 2JZ but I need to go find a a answer on the internet, as have Race engine builder work with me is no good he got no Karma.

you are right, it is only a 2JZ no more special than an rb25 or fe3 or kl or or or

its not rocket science, anyone can do it, no race engine builder required.

I'll leave you with the yanks and laugh.

i find this particularly ironic considering that its the oz govt that kisses bush arse at every opportunity. (this is not a refection on other oz members here, but perhaps it is a relfection on you)

is this you :

http://us.f2.yahoofs.com/users/44559...QHX5GBLtTbW.Te

is this real per chance? suits you i think ;-)

next thing you'll be cracking excuses about minority rights and oppression...

if you dont wanna learn, and you dont wanna help others, stay offline for good. its best for everyone.

fred.

[SixSick6]

Why do Australians use Autronic and Motec?- simple, they're specific to Australia just like Megasquirt is specific to the U.S because ding ding- it was made here.

Why don't the Australian guys use Megasquirt more often?- simple, they either don't know about it yet or don't have any money left after paying top dollar for a motec setup that Megasquirt can do for 3x more money left in your wallet.

Why do large race teams use Autornic and especially Motec?- simple, once you're a "big race tem" parts don't cost the same as they used to and are often given to you for free. In short, you'd be a fool not to use their parts....that is if you're already bending over for the corporate paycheck.

[moebius]

Originally Posted by fredio54

dumping fuel into the manifold is no good unless you dump air in at the same time.

right. I didn't address that.

i'm not sure that i'd be happy with injecting fuel into the exhaust even if it was legal in nz. dont know if it is?

a) do you care?
b) does it matter?
c) are there any emissions testing?
d) this is for *science* - it's okay.

ie, you dont need the volume of gasses to keep it spooled because the sheer velocity and pressure of the explosive ones from antilag is enough in lesser quantities.

Right - you don't need the volume. We just need enough fuel to use up the remaining oxygen, and get one more little burst of energy. Run Lean up until the point the turbo normally kicks in, and inject a little fuel to help kick the turbo on early.

i think its wrong to say that heat drives the turbo. i think its velocity and mass that drive it. as the temperature falls, the velocity falls, hence the "keep the manifold hot" beliefs that are around.

Heat = high velocity molecules.

I don't think it is technically wrong, misleading perhaps - it depends on what you are thinking of when we talk about heat.

Keeping the manifold hot, will definitely help.

The physics of a turbo are such that you are using the waste heat to perform work - the work is compressing air. If you maintain that differential (no matter how you maintain it) of heat, then you will continue to do work (e.g. spin the turbine).

lastly i guess, dumping in fuel without air wont produce any heat anyway, not unless the engine is running uber lean at the time.

Ah, now that's a very good point.

This is where we get to cheat - with high enough temperatures (see ceramics), and great disregards to environmental regulations, we get to engage in *funky* combustion products. We just need to add enough fuel to be burned off by the remaining oxygen --- there *always* is some,

You'll definitely have to tune on the lean side for the primary combustion- but only when the turbo isn't spooled. Once the turbo is spooled, then we run rich again.. .




Think of it as running a diesel turbine (on gasoline) from the exhaust gases of your motor - but the diesel turbine is powering a compressor, which is boosting your motor.

The question is - how lean can you run the piston engine - safely, how much air can you get into the turbo manifold, and how much fuel can you put into the turbo to get it to burn the fuel -- we can increase the safety by running water injection --- yes it will cool, but remember, it will be plenty hot coming out, and if we can push it the right way, you'd get a little extra oxygen ouf of the deal....

I don't think it is a question of putting lots of fuel into the turbo, rather - it will be putting *just* the right amount, at the right time, to keep the turbo spooled all the time -- sure you should be able to switch this on and off, and it'll probably have trouble getting started, but once the cycle is started, it should ought to work. It'd take some serious tuning to get it to run.



kinda like how power plants run multi-stage hybrid power systems, you'd be creating a hybrid multi-stage engine. It would not longer be purely a Otto cycle, it'd be a Fred-Cycle engine.

think along the lines of Crowers six stroke engine...
Inside Bruce Crower’s Six-Stroke Engine - AutoWeek



OR

MAYBE EVEN SIMPLER --- just divert some air from the cold side of turbo, add a little fuel, and shove that into the exhaust manifold.
ala
Brayton cycle - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Keep the turbo boosting all the time.... you'll need a solenoid/valve, which is computer controlled - obviously you just want to keep it boosting *all* the time...
So when you let off the throttle, you'd open up that valve, some of the air from the compresser would go straight to the exhaust side, along with fuel, you've got plenty of heat + a little more oxygen, presto - keep that turbo spooled up.


Sure, the piping is complicated - and you'd have to add a control system some how, but it should be cheap, and effective....

[fredio54]

interesting reading :-)

the reason i dont want fuel, esp high pressure fuel where its really really hot is fire. i dont like fire (cept when i'm playing with it...). i esp dont like high pressure fuel fed fires.

the fuel would be vapourising behind the injector unless the pressure was enormous. vapour pressure would own you.

thats why we run rich, and have excess fuel, not o2 in the exhaust and add air to let it burn.

pretty much exactly like the audi system, but lower scale and only sometimes on.

(cheers gavin)

fred.

[SixSick6]

Originally Posted by fredio54

(cheers tully)

fred.

Fixed it for ya. I think?

[moebius]

Nawh, Gavin got there first.

I'm slow -- because I'm hashing it all out in text.

Right, so, Fred... you want to break the laws of thermodynamics, and you are afraid of a little engine fire?

Bah!

Just inject Diesel or Kerosene instead of gas...

Or use nitrous.

Anti-lag is a tough problem, and if you want Hairy Chested Man Sized Anti-lag, then you've gotta be prepared to singe some chest hairs......

[fredio54]

Originally Posted by moebius

Nawh, Gavin got there first.

nah, its all been good reading :-) just gavins link has the most promise so far, and got me thinking about a way to make it work the most :-)

i tried to give you karma, and gavin, and sick, but no luck on all fronts. i find that a big problem.

though, i can alleviate it a little soon if this pillick keeps talking [shizzle].

Right, so, Fred... you want to break the laws of thermodynamics, and you are afraid of a little engine fire?

LOL, really LOL.

Just inject Diesel or Kerosene instead of gas...

now you are talking, that i might consider! the slower burn wouldnt harm the turbo as much either, but once again, we need o2, and i dont wanna run lean :-p it scares me ;-)

Anti-lag is a tough problem, and if you want Hairy Chested Man Sized Anti-lag, then you've gotta be prepared to singe some chest hairs......

i just dont want burnt ex valves that i might get with retard antilag. which leaves me feeding it air and fuel somehow or other. i know doing that will work, it was the control/physical side of it that i didnt quite have enough info on really. audi style on a smaller scale i think. if thats not enough, i can increase the scale somewhat. i do like the diesel idea though. then i could have a max torque mixture in the engine, and perfect timing and smoothness and still keep the sucker spooled relatively safely.

something to keep in mind.

thanks to you also tully :-)

fred.

[bleedsblue0023]

the only easy ALS is Nitrous fred. I really don't see the issue with running it.

You obviously have the skill to plumb your head yourself and 2 15lb bottles with the associated solienoids for a 4cyl. engine are not that expensive.

A DP shot of a few HP using a window switch and MS will solve your problems, and since it doesnt have to be running at crazy tempetures all the time like a diesel injected turbine manifold to function you wont have any problems. Since you are only using the gas for spooling purposes you won't have any singed exhaust valves simply b/c the amount of spray you will need is small, plus since its DP then puddleing is almost a non issue.

I know how badass true antilag would be, but you said it yourself you arn't made of money and antilag is going to cost some at the very least in testing, and prolly in parts if you f-ed up any of your calculations.

unless you plan on doing some rediculous racing, 2 big bottles for a smallish shot would last quite a while.

Good luck, it would be a cool project, but damn..the possibility of screwing up what you have been working on for so long would suck.

Kyle

[fredio54]

at worst, i screw up the manifold and turbo.

the manifold cost me maybe 150nz or so, i forget, and one full night to weld up. the turbo more, but no time to fit it etc.

nitrous is expensive and runs out, and cant be filled up in the back of beyond at a normal gas station.

are you suggesting i feed the engine nitrous to aid spool, or feed the exhaust mani nitrous to do antilag? if the latter, i reckon it will be used pretty fast. if the former, thats not good enough for what i want.

whats DP ?

thanks for the comments :-) karma given

also, nitrous if fed into the engine needs a cert just to have it, and cant be used on the street in nz. i'm all about street. i dont know if those restrictions apply if fed into your mouth, or the exhaust though.

i'm not keen on water injection either. stuff that runs out (other than fuel) seems like a bad idea to me.

fred.

[rodhog]

Well Fred I'm going to say thanks for bring up a something I forgot all about, the AMG SLK - the old R/C cars and few other things I had fun with Didn't even know it was still around.

That should tell you I don't care.

So yeah I won't coment on your stuff keep it going. Whatever, Don't talk suck up to Bush - because you would not have the money for a decent Rugby team if it wasn't for the US.


As for that motec comment about why big tems use it and why Aus, Most Australian tuning shops use lower grade versions we have market full of them desgined and made here. Sold worldwide from the middle east to south america
But motec and Autronic -IS WORLD WIDE LEADERS. In both ECU's and Data logging technology - Look at all the Big Sport Compact racers who ran what and start with what- and then the rest.
If megasquirt was that good - More people be using it here In Australia we have such a selection that, it just can't compete.
It's not about cost or back handers, it's about using what is required. I'm a peronsonal friend of a person who builds a large majority of aftermarekt ECU's for both private user workshops and race teams. I don't get it any cheaper then any race team or workshop. He needs no advertisement and sponsors very select and few cars.

I've had people buy megasquirts install them and come to my dyno's and ask for tuning, and if it's not sensor problems is errors in the programing. It's pain Dyno time is expensive, so those who risk using it do so with there wallets open.

[fredio54]

Originally Posted by rodhog

Whatever, Don't talk suck up to Bush - because you would not have the money for a decent Rugby team if it wasn't for the US.

LOL, yeah, because national pride has NOTHING to do with wanting to be a part of the most prestigious teams in the country... you keep talking drivel and proving you know next to nothing about all sorts of things.

But motec and Autronic -IS WORLD WIDE LEADERS.

are worldwide leaders for plurals, not is world wide leaders...

i'll give you that about motec, but the rest nope.

have a read of this, look through the feature list, read what it has to say, you will soon find that ms is the best option except in the case that you need extensive on board datalogging without a pc or other such high end features...

http://www.angelfire.com/ex2/thx2me/qqq.pdf
(automotive tuning/hacks for dummies)

If megasquirt was that good - More people be using it here In Australia we have such a selection that, it just can't compete.

once again, you do not listen, people in oz ARE using it. lots of them... and at home in nz which despite most ppl from both sides of the ditch hating and denying the fact varies only in weather and accent mostly.

ffs, i mean, i personally know 7 people that have it running their engines, and i'm no centre of the tuning community in auckland, i'm just your average enthusiast... i know of about the same number again... there are heaps that i dont know about. heaps. open your eyes, its no back yard solution, its one of the best, just without the hefty price tag...

I've had people buy megasquirts install them and come to my dyno's and ask for tuning, and if it's not sensor problems is errors in the programing. It's pain Dyno time is expensive, so those who risk using it do so with there wallets open.

because sensor issues only affect megasquirt? not the other ecus equally? not oem ecus?? idiot. if the user is silly enough to even take their car to a dyno for tuning esp to you, may i suggest that they are not the cream of the crop, they certainly are heading in the right direction though... its not that hard (not hard at all) to setup the software for it. its easy as pie to tune. a basic "high load and idle" tune took me about an hour in the pissing rain spinning the wheels constantly... not hard. when i get back and have a chance to play with my toy for a few days straight, i'll spend some time and bring the tune in even closer for cruise etc. its a non issue. dynos are way way way over rated.

get a life you pompous prat.

[bleedsblue0023]

Dp is direct port injection rather than wet or dry inj. So instead of running a manifold shot you spray into the head, minimizing loss and maximizing power and atomization (thats what I meant by no puddleing, since you arn't spraying a gas/no2 mix though your mani, that backfire doesnt happen)

At least in the part of the US that I live in no2 is legal in your car, just not hooked up, meaning turn the bottle off and you are fine. As far as fill ups go you might be surprised to find how many there are.

It WILL aid spool. Nitrous/fuel mix added in your "spin-up" or "lag" rev range via a window switch/nitrous controller/MSNS (if you have the option) and a wide open throttle switch makes sure you only run the shot you need during the time you need it: foot to the floor, waiting for the turbo to spool. The best part about the system is the lack of hard explosive wear and tear of your engine. If 50hp worth of no2 removes the lag for you over say
2000-3750rpm, hell go with a dry shot with $300 and 2 hrs max install time you have on demand anti lag. since you are not running w/ it for horsepower the bottle should last quite awhile.

direct port is more expensive, but the best type of system, and the way to get the most from your buck.

the legality of any als system is up for grabs ESPECIALY a wasted spark/rich system. Even and air induction/rich system is going to get you noticed.

Have you ever been next to a gt car running als? You'd prolly get arrested b/c of noise alone.

Just throwing ideas out there..Could it be that the set up alone be flawed? The light back of the ute with improper rubber or suspension leading to a non progressive slide condition? Exessive lag causing a boost hit that unsettles the car itself sounds like a turbine sizing issue. Can you resize the holstat housing with out scrapping your set up? or run a smaller impeller?

just some ideas.

Kyle

[fredio54]

Originally Posted by bleedsblue0023

Dp is direct port injection rather than wet or dry inj. So instead of running a manifold shot you spray into the head, minimizing loss and maximizing power and atomization (thats what I meant by no puddleing, since you arn't spraying a gas/no2 mix though your mani, that backfire doesnt happen)

right, gotcha, i wouldnt have it any other way. even fuel mix is VERY important.

At least in the part of the US that I live in no2 is legal in your car, just not hooked up, meaning turn the bottle off and you are fine. As far as fill ups go you might be surprised to find how many there are.

ditto in nz, its legal so long as its off. where do you think i do the vast majority of my "spirited" driving? thats right, on the street where no2 is illegal. also, i strongly doubt that i can fill that no2 bottle at the top of ruapehu before my desent after using it all up on the ascent before a day of skiing etc etc ;-) nz != usa and i dont like cities.

It WILL aid spool. Nitrous/fuel mix added in your "spin-up" or "lag" rev range via a window switch/nitrous controller/MSNS (if you have the option) and a wide open throttle switch makes sure you only run the shot you need during the time you need it: foot to the floor, waiting for the turbo to spool. The best part about the system is the lack of hard explosive wear and tear of your engine. If 50hp worth of no2 removes the lag for you over say
2000-3750rpm, hell go with a dry shot with $300 and 2 hrs max install time you have on demand anti lag. since you are not running w/ it for horsepower the bottle should last quite awhile.

yes, i know it aids spool, but its also on and off, ie, it wont keep my throttle response steady and smooth on a micro second basis that i need.

thing is i'll still get lag, so i'll get nitrous below x psi, and then a dip and then lots of boost. there is no way of transitioning a system like that without excessive staged injectors for it. and that would still only be a hack for my purposes.

the legality of any als system is up for grabs ESPECIALY a wasted spark/rich system. Even and air induction/rich system is going to get you noticed.

if its switchable, and doesnt involve fuels in the exhaust, and brakes that dont work because the throttle is always open, then i cant see it being an issue. they generally only regulate against things that lots of ppl do, and not many at all do that (or id have found some dude with a project that had done it going "heres how"). also, the retard version is easy to switch on and off in software, so couldnt be proved to be installed at all.

noise wise, i'm sure you are right, but our laws are a bit different thats for sure, and sitting at 3k (with the als switch off) with 1m from the rear of the vehicle on a 45 degree angle from the exhaust must measure X decibels or something like that. because its so custom, it will be certed and effectively i am the manufacturer, and it is the original exhaust system, so the cops wont be able to take it based on that (if the bastards can catch me).

Have you ever been next to a gt car running als? You'd prolly get arrested b/c of noise alone.

yeah, i know its loud :-)

Just throwing ideas out there..Could it be that the set up alone be flawed? The light back of the ute with improper rubber or suspension leading to a non progressive slide condition? Exessive lag causing a boost hit that unsettles the car itself sounds like a turbine sizing issue. Can you resize the holstat housing with out scrapping your set up? or run a smaller impeller?

the exhaust side is the smallest available for the hy/hx series, its only 9cm2... evo tdo5s are 7cm2 and support 2/3 the hp. it spools ok, but it unspools very quickly and the spool isnt instant, and thus no good for skids.

as for the vehicular aspect, no, its sweet. when the wastegate was open, i could skid it to 70mph top of third with ease and perfect control (wet). no problem. its the contrast between 17psi and 2psi that kills me. if it was 3psi and 1psi, its not too big a deal. for reference, it was probably making about 190hp at the crank from duty cycle logs at the time. a bit more than a stock fe3 courtesy of the free exhaust and slick intake and 3.5psi of boost in the top end. it was very nice to drive like that.

reducing the boost pressure to a half its current level could solve the issue somewhat too, but that also reduces the power ;-) if i cant get something working, i'll buy a td05 of vfXX or t28 and set the boost to 10 or 15psi or so and see how it goes like that. silvia and subby and evo ppl have no issues with those turbos for response, so i should be ok too. i'll be pretty severely limited by a little turbo like that though. for winter and track use though, it will be ideal.

thanks again for your input, the more the merrier :-)

ps, there is some serious crap in that pdf i linked. and some really good info to balance it. eg, it says copper spark plugs > iridium > platinum whereas the copper should be on the rhs of platinum...

cheers, fred.