Proper antilag, thoughts, comments, suggestions?

[rodhog]

Originally Posted by fredio54

because sensor issues only affect megasquirt? not the other ecus equally? not oem ecus?? idiot. if the user is silly enough to even take their car to a dyno for tuning esp to you, may i suggest that they are not the cream of the crop, they certainly are heading in the right direction though... its not that hard (not hard at all) to setup the software for it. its easy as pie to tune. a basic "high load and idle" tune took me about an hour in the pissing rain spinning the wheels constantly... not hard. when i get back and have a chance to play with my toy for a few days straight, i'll spend some time and bring the tune in even closer for cruise etc. its a non issue. dynos are way way way over rated.

get a life you pompous prat.

Your calling me a Pompous prat. When your telling me you can get a decent tune in a TOP GEAR at max load with out a dyno- So effectivley - Your on a public road doing a Silly speed - I do think highest NZ speed limit is what 120km/h - 110km/h So what your WOT in what gear 2nd and that's your tune.
SO I'm stupid for using Dyno to tune cars keep it safe and LEGAL.
Because Good decent track type road exsist with no traffic where I can use tune the car all day. Oh andi t's raining so it will spin the wheels like on a DYNO - Oh that's classic tunning tips right there. So when your when your at Hi load in top gear and you starve the engine or ping out - oh that's just brilliant.

DYNO's are over rated. Oh dam I should get out on public roads and Tune 4000+ HP cars on the steet because sping the wheels in the rain is going to provide the Right loading.
Maybe a light baisc tune, can be done, I've used a basic map just to transport a car but never going to send anyone out to the track with that.

I hope you end up in Jail for such stupidity

[fredio54]

Originally Posted by STW

I think if there's ever a situation on a public road where use of antilag is relevant, noise will be one of the least pressing issues the law will have with it

very true, i'll be done for "sustained loss of traction" ... if they can keep up ;-)

[fredio54]

i thought you said you'd stay out of my threads?

Originally Posted by rodhog

Your calling me a Pompous prat. When your telling me you can get a decent tune in a TOP GEAR at max load with out a dyno- So effectivley - Your on a public road doing a Silly speed - I do think highest NZ speed limit is what 120km/h - 110km/h So what your WOT in what gear 2nd and that's your tune.
SO I'm stupid for using Dyno to tune cars keep it safe and LEGAL.
Because Good decent track type road exsist with no traffic where I can use tune the car all day. Oh andi t's raining so it will spin the wheels like on a DYNO - Oh that's classic tunning tips right there. So when your when your at Hi load in top gear and you starve the engine or ping out - oh that's just brilliant.

DYNO's are over rated. Oh dam I should get out on public roads and Tune 4000+ HP cars on the steet because sping the wheels in the rain is going to provide the Right loading.
Maybe a light baisc tune, can be done, I've used a basic map just to transport a car but never going to send anyone out to the track with that.

I hope you end up in Jail for such stupidity

its not me in the wanted frame looking like a criminal...

ok, heres how you do it: by filling the car with heavy [shizzle] so that its slow, and using the brakes to load it significantly, you could thereby drive along the motorway at 100kph (max limit) or 115kph (normal tolerance if you look vaguely non cromed up and rice)

such roads DO exist in NZ, perhaps oz is just over crowded in the small percentage thats not a desert? either way, i dont see a problem with finding a tune in a lower gear and then cranking it back a few degrees for the case when your cheap cooling system cant cope and you are worried about combustion chamber temps rising out of control. or if you have a good ems thats accurate regardless of rate of change of rpm (my ms is to 10 crank degrees!!) and a properly engineered cooling system that can keep internal conditions close to constant... it makes little difference.

could you per chance show any proof that you have tuned a 4001hp car? thought not, stop plucking numbers and experience out of thin air...

in any event, the only aspect of the tune that changes with a good ems like ms and a well engineered trigger signal is the advance required before ping. and thats purely heat based. nothing else.

you have no clue. sod off.

fred.

[fredio54]

someone linked me here, so i thought i'd post it in this thread to get mobius excited etc.

Honda-Tech.com: Forced Induction: Dual-Sequential Chargers

[moebius]

That's a very interesting post, basically he has a M62 and a Turbo on the same car, above a certain rpm threshold, when the turbo should be boosting, he bypasses the M62, and runs off the turbo.



The only problem is that he is using it on a honda -- note how the torque doesn't built until 3500 rpm... what fun is that?

I want torque at 1500 rpm...

This echoes, what I have been convinced of for a few years. In a force induction situation, the best way to obtain even torque from low to high rpms, is to use both, a Super + Turbo, or Dual-Sequential, or Twin-Charging (ala VW), or whatever you want to call it.

I suspect if he was running a b20, instead of the b16, he'd see a bit more torque. I'd still wager a FE-DOHC in a similar setup would be much more satisfying.... but that's my bias.

I've driven a integra GSR, and I'll have to say, it's fun at 7-8k rpm, but...
I'll take the 3-5k of F2T torque over that 7-8k rpm b18 driving any day...

[moebius]

Ah, very interesting... mentions diff between roots/eaton and lysholm.

Using the Bypass Valve will only work with a Roots/Eaton... it won't work with a lysholm. If you are using a lysholm type, you'd use both all the time, rather than switching off between them. The Roots/Eaton have almost no parasitic loss if they are not "blowing".. Interesting..

Here you go..........

It has to do with how a Roots blower works. Unlike a Lysholm compressor that compresses the air between the rotors, the Eaton compresses air externally in the plenum. It’s really a “blower” instead of an actual compressor. So on an Eaton blower, if you do something that equalizes the pressure between the inlet and outlet ports (like opening a big bypass valve) the blower stops doing any work, so it stops taking much power to spin, and it stops generating as much heat, because it can’t compress air unless it has a sealed plenum to push the air into. So whenever the bypass is open, it doesn’t matter if I have the whole system pressurized to 20 PSI with a turbo, the blower sees no pressure because it has no sealed chamber to make pressure in and it can’t make pressure inside the blower because it’s just a blower. Your parasitic losses with a big bypass valve (I use a 2.5” valve now) should be around 1 HP with the valve open. I thought about building a clutch or using one off of a Mercedes, but I talked with a Mercedes tech that told me it wouldn’t be good for track use. They program them on a Mercedes not to engage if the motor is already revving very high, or it would destroy the clutch, and when I hit the gas I want some boost, no matter what RPM I am at.

I think the key to running it through both would be adding a second intercooler...

[fredio54]

sorry mate on engine alone, i'd take the "gsr" (I assume you mean B18C) over any sohc f engine period. it all comes down to valve per cylinder count for me. my girls NA 1.6 toyota makes more hp stock than a stock 2.2 f2t. and its lighter. good point on the lysholm thing.

[moebius]

my girls NA 1.6 toyota makes more hp stock than a stock 2.2 f2t. and its lighter.

It may make more power, but does it make more torque than a stock F2T ?


Getting back on subject.....
What are your current thoughts on anti lag options?
Which of the options seems the most reasonable for you to pursue, or are you just going to drop it for the time being?

[fredio54]

given that my ute is 11368 miles away, the thread was there to give me something to chew over. an antilag thread came up on msextra.com too, and i had a few things to say there. i'd be keen to try out basic anitlag in small doses as the engineering side of that is most simple (oversized pwmidle valve and nothing else), and someone that uses that style of antilag said that any form of it done through a pwm idle valve wont harm the turbo manifold ex valves at all. i tend to agree.

i strongly doubt that it can achieve what i want though. i full intend to add venturis into the manifold for hardcore antilag, and modify the ms2e source to control it in a useful way.

the supercharger setup is just so much work and setup time to not speed the car up and to make it more complicated and more front heavy, if you were to read back through my posts you'd see that i was dead set on doing a supercharger conversion, but somewhere i lost sight of it, possibly when i thought about what i could achieve with a cheap holset.

so in my mind, what i intend to do is this :
get some serious brakes and suspension mods and panel mods and what have you onto her, get her running right, get her certed and road legal, enjoy it for a summer, then upgrade the injectors to run more boost, play with antilag, possibly build a smaller turbo system just to try it because it would be relatively easy to do.

after i've had some fun with it and tracked it somewhat i have a secret but totally unexciting medium term plan for it, and then back to being what it is, the ultimate sleeper, with a dune buggy occasionally on the back :-)

as for the 4age having more torque, no, course not, but add boost and it could, but not at the same boost level. i'd still take it no matter what. if it wasnt for rotating the wrong way, i reckon you'd find honda motors in a lot more places! (same number of wankers though).

summary, i intend to try boring als, serious als, a smaller turbo in that order. but all after getting it legal and tuning it, and finishing it properly, and playing with it a bunch :-)

fred.

[fredio54]

I found something VERY promising.

none of the draw backs to normal antilag

a new drawback called space and weight. the potential to remote mount the turbo and have the weight over teh back wheels and also in a place that more roomy

may i introduce, the holset jet turbine, done properly!!

YouTube - Jet engine, homemade

no snap crackle pop noise, no shock waves, no damage! just smooth power from idle to redline!! wickud.

fred.

[fredio54]

Making of a jet engine
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BZoymnZRBVc

etc

lots of it, diagram is here :



fred.

[fredio54]

Experimental Projects

this guy is the god of this stuff. also, he can tig weld bloody well.

i've figured out a control strategy and plumbing that will work as a nice complete system.

i'm almost tempted to build a pointless experimental engineless one just to try it all out.

its pretty cool.

fred.

[fredio54]

watch this video, it has electric spool up and start. lol, the best antilag ever, and he doesnt know it yet!

http://www.rcdon.com/assets/multimed...t_768_Kbps.wmv

the earlier model had rpm measurements. anyone who wants to build anything like this, needs only his link. very cool.

fred.

[moebius]

Okay, there are two ways I could see this potentially working ( for large values of 2, specifically, where 2 = 3)

1) AIR--> Turbo Compressor --> Fixed Proportioning Valve Splits Air Charge to (a) and (b)
2) AIR--> Turbo Compressor, bypass valve which switches between (a) and (b) at certain conditions
3) AIR --> Turbo Compressor --> ECU controlled Variable Proportioning Valve Splits Air Charge to (a) and (b), from full on to full off, and everything inbetween.

Where:
(a) is intercooler/engine, standard turbo path
(b) is combustion chamber, leads to turbo hot side. Combustion chamber has fuel injection

The simple option, (1), no bypass valves, just straight pipes is easy.. but you have to worry about keeping the intake pressure higher than exhaust pressure... This is good if you have a really big turbo... the problems will be that you'd need some sort of proportioning valve - so that not all of the turbo boost goes into the jet.

The slightly more complex option (2), might cause some turbo surge problems... the switching of the bypass from engine to combustion chamber might produce jarring torque all of a sudden.. or it might introduce some additional lag. This is interesting, because you would have to have an additional air input.... so you could run the car as a N/A, and then, flip the bypass valve, blam - turbo, like a clutched super charger, but no lag issues, because it's a frickin' jet engine the rest of the time.


The most complex option, (3) would have some servo which totally controls our proportioning valve, so it would control amount of anti-lag. The cool thing, this would effectively eliminate any need for a bypass/bov valve, you'd still need a wastegate. The biggest problem would be building it. Put something like this on a *big* turbo, and you'd be in great shape.. Want to drag? Engage the anti-lag system, pause for the combustor to start, ah, now the turbo is spooled up... when you stomp on the gas, you get full boost instantly, and the jet engine gets shut off (or reduced to a trivial amount), let off the gas, and the jet engine comes back on. Now, the best part of having the variable bypass valve - you can change the degree of anti-lag, it's another parameter to tune! woot!


This is definitely an evolution of the whole, just inject fuel into the intake manifold.
The big thing I would worry about is additional heat and additional fuel consumption.
You probably don't want to run the jet off of gasoline, or diesel, so it would probably have to be propane... a problem to carry that around, less so than nitrous, but still, a problem. As for the additonal heat, you'd want to shield that combustion chamber, and you'd need some extra room for it in the engine bay.. but you'll find room somewhere... probably right below the turbo.

Other hard bits would be figuring out exactly how large, and what shape to make the combustor chamber... but again, shouldn't be too bad.


Fred, you have yourself a winner of an idea.

So, like, when can we see pictures?

[fredio54]

heres the current (probably flawed) plan :

wastegate hooked on cooler side of throttle such that it can open if pre throttle boost is high (rather than intake side to force it shut hard which isnt necessary and just adds stress to the diaphram)

bovs vent to a chamber with two 50mm throttles, one feeding to the combustor, the other to a filter and open air. to engage the system, the old manual choke could be used to open one, and close the other simultaneously, an on/off tps could arm the electronics for ign and fuel supply and potentially pwm on the bov feeds :

bovs could be either pulled open by vacuum as normal and feed all air to the chamber, or have that vacuum bled and pwm controlled to allow pressure to be built in the intake. i'm not sure if the latter would work at all, as the restriction to airflow could effectively drop the efficiency below the self sustaining level required, thus the bovs might have to be pulled fully open as per normal to allow full flow.

i'm still not sure even that would work for part throttle, but part throttle seemed ok anyway, so maybe i dont need it. full lift off though meant total loss of spool, this could effectively overspool, and could be tuned by adding more fuel to maintain the right compressor rpm to give full instant boost on reapply.

the trick in any case is to ensure instant starting of combustion in there. that could only be done with diesel (dont want gas on board) with a heater circuit.

for a start, i can use diesel glowplugs to preheat it, secondly, an lpg pilot flame could be a goer, thirdly, a venturi and scoop tubing arrangment in the dump pipe could feed hot exhaust through the chamber such that its already nice n hot when the diesel goes in and evaporates instantly and lights from the constant sparking of the ignition.

the thing to do would be to buy a second identical turbo and plumb it up in a frame like that guy and see how compact we could get the chamber with instant start up assuming pre spooled turbo.

the beauty is that its smooth flow, so the turbo wouldnt suffer at all.

the tricky bit would be engineering it to start quickly, and come on and off at the right times. after that, it should be golden. just a matter of tuning the turbo rpm for best throttle reapplication action :-)

see this diagram for the boost that would be present in the intake even with the bovs wide open :



thats what he actually got on the "gr1" unit.

he also provides this foruma for chamber design :



this is the turbo he used for that first one :

Originally Posted by rcdon

After some research, I chose to employ a T3/T4 Roto Master/Garrett hybrid turbocharger that I picked up on eBay as a rebuilt unit. Similar to a Garrett T04B turbocharger

the forumla for that diagram are :

Originally Posted by rcdon

The diameter (in cm) of the turbocharger’s inducer (inlet) shall be represented by the value “I”.

The inside diameter (in cm) of the combustion liner: A = 1.3 X I

The length (in cm) of the combustion liner: B = 3.85 X I

The inside diameter (in cm) of the combustion chamber: C = 2.1 X I

The cross-section area (square cm) of the bypass section: D = 3.6 X I

The total area (square cm) of the combustion liner holes: E = 4 X I

The total number of holes (H) in the combustion liner: H = E / 0.33

compared to others out there, his run very smoothly. i think he knows what hes on about.

as for pics, 2009 unless something random happens :-)

fred.