++smoked my buddys 97 gt 4.6l++

[Mike 94PGT]

Originally Posted by zlyricist

a 62-1 turbo kit thats not a lot of money? show me

$6K for a Hellion kit which also includes a new K-member and associated front suspension parts. That's not all that much. Or, if that's too rich for your blood you could always go the "ademan" route and throw a bunch of nitrous at it for just over a grand for a complete, direct-port kit.

i see where you're going with this. but what does any of that matter, you can dump thousands into any car, 1.6 liters, 2 liters, 3 liters. technology has allowed us to make almost any car fast, granted you throw enough cash into it

Exactly. I'm just reminding folks of the reality that the next Mustang might not be in its 215HP, factory original form and to keep things in perspective, that's all.

[mazdacar707]

oh yeah post #10 maffatato15 i smoked him pretty good, next on the list is the commercial manager where i work, he owns a 5.0 mustang that is not stock i dont think i will win but its worth a shot. oh yeah he dosent drive it much and it has a full cage.

[endymion]

Originally Posted by zlyricist

i see where you're going with this. but what does any of that matter, you can dump thousands into any car, 1.6 liters, 2 liters, 3 liters. technology has allowed us to make almost any car fast, granted you throw enough cash into it

any car can be fast. the saying goes " speed costs money, how fast do you want to spend?"

[maffatato15]

you can make a stock mx6 fast by spending a couple hundred (exhaust and boost controller, maybe chipped ecu). You say by a turbo kit for a mustang for 6 grand? I wanna see an mx6 with 6 grand worth of mods because it doesnt take much to make a 1st gen fast. Like what was said before, speed costs money and you can make anything happen with money.

[Mike 94PGT]

Originally Posted by maffatato15

you can make a stock mx6 fast by spending a couple hundred (exhaust and boost controller, maybe chipped ecu). You say by a turbo kit for a mustang for 6 grand? I wanna see an mx6 with 6 grand worth of mods because it doesnt take much to make a 1st gen fast. Like what was said before, speed costs money and you can make anything happen with money.

And at some point you butt up against the ugly reality of a peg-leg front wheel drive platform that's getting on for 20 years of age. All the power in the world won't do much good if you're spinning one wheel or in the weeds due to torque steer. And if you want high power from that small turbo motor you'll most likely have to live with tons of lag in town as is usually the case with BT, small-displacement motors. Makes for good streetfire "rolling start" races I guess but not alot of fun or all that responsive in town where most people spend 90% of their time.

There's nothing stopping anyone from spending any amount of money on anything they want: You could put turbos on a Z06, a $4000 Kenne Bell twin-screw blower or a Hellion single- or twin-turbo kit on a Mustang, a BT on a GTI or MX6, a Hyabusa engine in a smart car etc. People will mod what they have and swear to high-heaven that theirs is the best platform eVaR 'cause you can get really good performance by doing <insert mod here>. In the big picture though, there's a law of diminishing returns, especially when physical realities are considered. An Evo is not a particularly, spectacularly powerful (from the factory) car but its AWD drivetrain allows the thing to run sub-5-sec 0-60 drags. A Mustang with some 315s out back and a few simple mods under the hood could approach this but a front-wheel drive car powerful enough to theoretically get to 60 that fast will most likely be hopelessly traction limited and if it does have traction with fat DRs in the front, its transmission and half-shafts are at risk.

So okay, let me rephrase things a little: There will always be someone faster and there will always be someone starting with a better platform for a given task.

Given the cars in question here, if I wanted a drag racer I'd simply much rather start with a rear drive platform with a heavy duty drivetrain and a good reserve of cubes under the hood; good N/A and even better with forced induction. For a year-round commuter I'd rather start with a small, FWD car, preferably with a small, responsive turbo; I'd tighten the suspension a bit and up the power but not at the expense of lag, balance or economy.

Sorry, but putting $6K worth of power mods into a later model Mustang, while not something I would personally do right now, still makes way more sense to me than doing the same thing to a front-wheel drive car built when Dubya's dad was in the Oval Office.

[maffatato15]

i just cant stand mustangs because they are one of the most common cars around here whether is the [shizzle]ty v6 or the v8. Most people around here when they race for fun (no traffic, highway) will do a 20-30 roll. Thats where my gt is powerful is on the roll because ill get traction. I guess it all depends on each persons situation depending on what car they buy and why. Personally, i would take a modified mx6 (not saying its a better platform) over a modified mustang anyday because modified mustangs are a dime a dozen. Now an mx6 pulling on a mustang is something to see. I have the only mx6 GT in my area. I have never seen a single gt here.



plus most people around here probably have no clue what an mx6 GT. They probably think it just has a slightly bigger engine instead of a turbo. I gueess im more of a sleeper car kind a guy.

[moebius]

Originally Posted by Mike 94PGT

In the big picture though, there's a law of diminishing returns, especially when physical realities are considered.

Precisely that is what makes the 1g MX6 so attractive, the return on investment is wonderful. You can but a 1g mx6, for under USD$1k now, and aside from regular maint issues, have it running high 13's for well under an additional USD$1k of investment(maintence aside). Sure, it will never be as fast as some other things, but the return for the investment is phenomenal.

You can't do that with a mustang - buy one for <$1k, and for less than $1k in mods have it running those speeds.. at least not easily.

Honestly, the biggest cost of the GD platform at this point is maintenance, and keeping stuff from breaking. Buying the cars is cheap, increasing performance to a reliable maximum (e.g. exhaust, ecu, t-bird hybrid, boost controller, boost gauge) is *CHEAP* compared with maintenance costs. Unlike say, a Mustang.. where the upgrades are far more expensive then the maint costs. But the cost benefit is still in favor of the mx6. That's the point.

So okay, let me rephrase things a little: There will always be someone faster and there will always be someone starting with a better platform for a given task.

That statement is absolutely correct, but totally useless.

The point is, the guy had a cheap old mx6 gt, and it was *relatively fast*.

For a year-round commuter I'd rather start with a small, FWD car, preferably with a small, responsive turbo; I'd tighten the suspension a bit and up the power but not at the expense of lag, balance or economy.

Precisely why the 1g mx6/626/GD platform crowd is still around.
Plenty of power (when stuff isn't breaking on these 20 year old cars, damn it, I just broke an exhaust manifold stud - immediately after fixing a leaky tb boot... but with that leak I still got nearly 33 mpg on a quick 200 mile round trip to the beach this weekend- granted the leak kept my boost down, which probably helped on the fuel economy going over mountains and such.. )

Sorry, but putting $6K worth of power mods into a later model Mustang, while not something I would personally do right now, still makes way more sense to me than doing the same thing to a front-wheel drive car built when Dubya's dad was in the Oval Office.

Depends on what your goals are. Most of the 1g people are totally happy with high 13s/low 14s, and that is an optimal spot for the 1g mx6.

A $500 modded mx6 will beat a $500 modded mustang 4.6. Sure a $6k modded mx6 probably won't beat a $6k modded mustang, but that isn't the point. No one would put $6k of mods into a mx6.. That is totally ridiculous, the point is you get more from $1k of mods in an mx6, than you can just about anywhere else. Sure it isn't the end all be all, but for a little bit of cash, you go a very long way. That's the point. The law of diminishing returns - you don't have to put much into the mx6, to get a lot out. Put in much more, and you get nothing. You have to put less into the mx6 than you do the mustang, that's the point. Sure you can get more out of the mustang, no one is arguing that.

BUT THAT ISN'T THE POINT.

The which you seem to get and simultaneously ignore, is that for $500 on top of purchase price, the mx6 gt is an excellent return on investment. It is a quick 4cyl which will shut up most v8 fan-boi-s. Not the serious drag racers, but that isn't the point.. it's a 4 cyl that shuts up the idiot v8 fans who are v8 fans because their daddies drove a v8. v8 Fans, who build 600 whp drag machines don't care, because it is a totally different class of drivers.. it is the guys in a v6 Camaro who like to talk trash about Ricer burners.. those are the idiots..

The group that believes that since they have a v8, they have the end all and be all of cars, and we come along and to quote James Gardner, "I love the look on their faces when I blow their doors off with my 626 GT Turbo" -- granted that quote is in reference to a BMW, but the quote applies equally well here.

It is all about cost benefit, and the law of diminishing returns, and a turbo 4 cyl has high value, and low cost. Something the "v8" people just don't get.

[maffatato15]

i dont think you could have said that any better. Well said.

[Mike 94PGT]

Originally Posted by moebius

Precisely that is what makes the 1g MX6 so attractive, the return on investment is wonderful. You can but a 1g mx6, for under USD$1k now...

And I think you understand why they go for less than $1K now too, right?

and aside from regular maint issues, have it running high 13's for well under an additional USD$1k of investment(maintence aside). Sure, it will never be as fast as some other things, but the return for the investment is phenomenal.

"ROI" is purely subjective in this case. A $1K car with $500 in mods is still more than likely going to be a $1K or less car in the Auto Trader a month later. Rust-caked wheel housings, faded clearcoat, worn suspension bushings, cracked interior parts and funky smells, dodgy repair and maintenance histories aren't made up for by a guy crimp-wiring and zip-tying in an EBC and getting 15 extra HP. So the ROI comes from the owner's satisfaction level. That's fine but it's also meaningless; I'm sure lots of Civic owners with park-bench wings get a great deal of satisfaction from their buys and rides but to a 3rd-party observer, it's still a POS with a big wing.

You can't do that with a mustang - buy one for <$1k, and for less than $1k in mods have it running those speeds.. at least not easily.

Honestly, I'd be hard-pressed to find a late-80s Mustang for as little as $1K. What does that say?

If I wanted to go fast for really cheap money, I'd buy a bike and have a half-decent, reliable daily driver for the rest of the time.

Honestly, the biggest cost of the GD platform at this point is maintenance, and keeping stuff from breaking.

How's the ROI on the reliability and upkeep side of things when buying a $1K car?

But the cost benefit is still in favor of the mx6. That's the point.

Only if you (a) look at relative, not absolute measures of performance and (b) only if you limit your focus to the issue of mild performance upgrade potential. Once you factor in things like upkeep and maintenance on that 20 year old, $1K car, suddenly the picture isn't so rosy anymore.

A 1990 Ford Probe GT ran a 16-second quarter mile when new. Getting that down to high-13s might be reasonably doable, assuming the 150,000 mile engine and turbo is up to the task nowadays and if you can keep the clutch and trans together after upping the torque output of the motor with a boost increase. A 1988 Mustang LX 5.0L did the quarter in 15.0-seconds. You'd already be a full-second ahead of the game starting with the Mustang and believe me, 12s in that car is not that hard to achieve. If quarter mile performance is your goal, the Mustang still comes out on top as the better "investment."

The point is, the guy had a cheap old mx6 gt, and it was *relatively fast*.

This doesn't counter my argument in the least. The guy should be proud his "relatively fast" older, FWD, modded 4-banger beat 6-years younger bone-stock V8, 2V, NPI Mustang. However, I hope in the back of his mind he's also recognizing that beating a 15.3-second 1/4-mile (4-96 R&T rating for the 1996 215HP MGT in the 1/4-mile) by a few lengths doesn't say anything substantive about the old I4-vs-V8 performance contest in general. I'd encourage him to take on an LS1 Camaro or PI or S197 Mustang, stock or modded, to gather more data...

I enjoy mucking around in my 2002 GTI 1.8T as much as the next guy but I never lose respect or sight of the reality of the bigger toys out there.

A $500 modded mx6 will beat a $500 modded mustang 4.6.

You sure about that? A 100-shot of N2O from a kit coming in right around $500 (less if you buy used and the money can be used toward a set of DRs) will catapult even the NPI 96-97 Mustang into the low 13s, perhaps even high 12s with a good driver. Is it even possible to get the power required to get an MX6 into the 12s for $500? And if so, still more money will be required to get that power to the ground and keep it together, right?

Sure a $6k modded mx6 probably won't beat a $6k modded mustang, but that isn't the point. No one would put $6k of mods into a mx6.. That is totally ridiculous, the point is you get more from $1k of mods in an mx6, than you can just about anywhere else. Sure it isn't the end all be all, but for a little bit of cash, you go a very long way. That's the point.

This argument is circling dangerously close to the old nugget about specific outputs that used to be (and may still be, I don't know) popular in the import scene: "Sure my modded 2.2L only makes 180HP but that's 81.8HP/L compared to the measly 65.2HP/L that a 3-valve Mustang makes..." Meanwhile, the S197 Mustang is running 13.5s bone stock with 12s just bolt-ons away and the 4-banger in question is already nearing the limits of reliability, driveability and being able to properly put more power to the ground through the two wheels doing the driving, the steering, carrying the most weight and most of the braking forces.

If dude wants to race V8s and gloat about beating them, then in fairness he should be racing more than just those saddled with tiny-port, restrictive cylinder heads and intake manifolds. Like I said earlier, I hope he lets us know what happens when he faces off against an S197 3-valve car or an LS1...

The law of diminishing returns - you don't have to put much into the mx6, to get a lot out.

"A lot" compared to what though? 16.0-sec to 14.0-sec? Well, okay, but again, a PI Mustang is running that without lifting the hood. "A lot" in relative terms, I guess.

The which you seem to get and simultaneously ignore, is that for $500 on top of purchase price, the mx6 gt is an excellent return on investment. It is a quick 4cyl which will shut up most v8 fan-boi-s. Not the serious drag racers, but that isn't the point..

Why not? Why isn't it the point? Limiting the V8s you can walk with a cheap modded turbo 4-cylinder car to those of 215HP or less from the factory is hardly representing "most V8" whatever-you-called-them-s.

it's a 4 cyl that shuts up the idiot v8 fans who are v8 fans because their daddies drove a v8.

Ah, I see. Given that many of the kids on this site now were born in the late 1980s or even the early 1990s, they probably saw their parents driving 4- and 6-cyl Camrys and Accords and Civics. Their "daddies" drove FWD, 4-cyl cars. Gee, is it a coincidence that the first car these kids inherit is more than likely a FWD 4-cyl ride or that's what they favor? Wanna bet that most MX6 owners here probably grew up with a Mazda in the family? It's a dumb point and a cheap-shot.

v8 Fans, who build 600 whp drag machines don't care, because it is a totally different class of drivers..

I'm not talking about racers of this ilk. Even A bone-stock, off the dealer-lot S197 Mustang GT will walk your MX6-GT and even though ROI is subjective as I've shown, I bet the MGT owner is getting far more satisfaction in his gorgeous new ride than the guy in the beater, sub-$1K MX6 mumbling under his breath about specific outputs and searching for a hobbled NPI Mustang to beat on...

The group that believes that since they have a v8, they have the end all and be all of cars...

The same is easily said of the 4-cyl crowd with an inferiority complex that has to tout specific output, redline numbers and number of camshafts because they can't, generally, put up the numbers at the track.

It is all about cost benefit, and the law of diminishing returns, and a turbo 4 cyl has high value, and low cost. Something the "v8" people just don't get.

I am a turbo-4 person (2002 GTI 1.8T.) I'm also a V8 guy. (2002 Mustang GT with mods.) Both are in my driveway, right now. I see it from both sides. Do you?

The OPer should be "proud" of his "kill", I guess. Just as long as he gives equal time to the many V8s that will walk him and his car if he's going to gloat about the odd kill over a lame V8.

[ls six]

A $1K car with $500 in mods is still more than likely going to be a $1K or less car in the Auto Trader a month later.

And a $10,000 - $15,000 mustang with a $6,000 turbo kit wont sell for $16,000-$21,000 either.

If you bought a new GT for $25,000 and added any amount of mod,s to it you'll still be reselling it for less than 25K. Unless you find some especialy stupid person to scam.

[moebius]

Since I'm not one to bother responding to rhetorical questions, I must admit this is the first time in quite a while I've had to add someone to my ignore list to increase the signal to noise ratio.

[Mike 94PGT]

Originally Posted by moebius

Since I'm not one to bother responding to rhetorical questions, I must admit this is the first time in quite a while I've had to add someone to my ignore list to increase the signal to noise ratio.

That's your perogative. My next reply would have been to say something like "I'm done with this thread. My point is made and it's just going to get nasty the further this goes. It's a good time to bow out."

But adding someone to an ignore list is just as effective I guess.

[Mike 94PGT]

Originally Posted by ls six

And a $10,000 - $15,000 mustang with a $6,000 turbo kit wont sell for $16,000-$21,000 either.

I know which car I would still rather have.

[maffatato15]

oh yeah......well.....well.....i still can get 30mpg on the highway and have power.....what now?!?!?





















lol just messin with you man

[ls six]

Originally Posted by Mike 94PGT

I know which car I would still rather have.

Thats just fine. It's a personal choice but you cant sujest that it's a better FINANTIAL decision to mod a newer car instead of an old one.