Guide to Road Racing - Page 3

fasturbo626 · 1-9-04, 6:42

parisifal, did you rip all this info off the gt3 game manual?

11-29-04, 21:56

I drove a '94 Legend and I could force it into a slide that would tighten the turn for me.
I've only been driving for a few months, being only 17 and all but I have confidence in my skill and I've driven a few different cars and could feel the difference. I can not wait until I get my own. Where can I find a track if I'm in north-ish New Jersey?

**parisifal** · 11-30-04, 11:20

Wow, I haven't updated this thread in forever.

fasturbo626 - not really, but I do admit testing some of the principles out in GT3 before I try it out in real life does help a bit, can't wait for GT4. Any of you should have that game, no it's not just a game, it's a simulator.

I have done alot more track time this year being in Europe and all, not to mention having a much more capable car than the 6 (which I still have and enjoy.)

I will put my experiences and tips on track driving, mainly focusing on preparation for your first time at a race track, since most help I've seen never focus on this vital area. I will also do a series of articles on different race tracks I've been to and how to prepare for each. I've done a few here in Europe which are great fun as well as being quite legendary. Once I return to the States early next year I will attempt a cross country track tour if finances and time allow. I know for sure I will be heading to Laguna Seca, Button Willow and Infineon when they have open track days. I am also considering Road America and a few other places, all will be highly dependent on finances but the first 3 will be top on my list.

Only problem now is to find my next track car, everything points to either an FC or Miata, there really isn't anything as cheap and as fun as those two cars. An S2000 or FD is also a choice, but I'd rather have a car I can tear up than one I have to baby.

**Trent** · 11-30-04, 20:58

can't go wrong with the miata. great weight distribution, and a decent power/weight ratio (especially the turbocharged models of course). Many of the best drivers in the Delta and CENLA SCCA regions near me win with Miatas.

Phillip · 12-3-04, 6:14

Under normal conditions I would start asking a lot of questions since this is about my biggest passion.... But some dudes were so f#$%^*g rude to me for fishing for info on racing and all about racing, so I'll just shut up now and see what kinds of info comes along that I can firstly understand and then use to expand the ultimate pleasure.....

By the way I do find everything here very interesting. Keep it up.........

MissMouse · 12-20-04, 18:27

I don't think you give the 6 enough credit. It has plenty of National Championships and trophies in STOCK form in stock class in the SCCA. (I ought to know, I won one the most recent of them) It's kinda like racing the 944. It leans a lot, but still sticks. The money from Mazda was nice though.

BTW, my Stock Class MX6 did a sustained 1.03 G with a peak of 1.10 at the Wendover Pro-Solo this year. I've raced plenty of other cars and actually think that the 6 is faster through sweepers and slower through transitions. (Damn those Mini's!)

"Drifting" or in the case of a FWD car "snap oversteer" is the slow way around a track. However, it is the fun way.

Every time I do it I come off with a BIG grin.

Oh well, give the 6 some credit, there is a reason it has 5 National championships in SCCA Stock Class and the Probe has none. (And plenty of people have tried in the Probe)

**Ryan** · 1-4-05, 21:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by MissMouse

Oh well, give the 6 some credit, there is a reason it has 5 National championships in SCCA Stock Class and the Probe has none. (And plenty of people have tried in the Probe)

Wow, I had no idea...I guess that hatch is a lot flexier and changes weight distribution a lot more...or do Probers just not know how to drive

Laters
Ryan

**Michael A.** · 2-10-05, 20:53

How about more details of the setup of your car? Sounds like you have it very dialed in, and that info will help some of us out. I know, you don't want to
give out hard-earned setting info, but the general specs like your springs, shocks, etc. I always wondered why the MX-6 did so well in that class, but
now that I have one, I'd like to copy some of your ideas, while keeping it streetable.

Thanks!

68firebird · 2-14-05, 22:20

im probly did it wrong, but when i used to power slide i spun my front tires and locked up my back tires, cause when you first come into the corner, you do have a lot of pressure on the outside front wheel, and if youjust spin them you reliele pressure.

**Samol_hok** · 7-23-05, 12:34

DONT forget the art of double clutching while brake
(HEEL and TOE)
This is an essential to road racing so you dont destroy your cars clutch and transmission

1. ok 3rd gear your sitting at say 5000 rpm
2. Braking point varies upon the corner entry
3. ok now down shift.... your still braking ok no problem
4. now you really have to know your cars difference in torque ratios between gears
ok say your at 3000rpm 3rd ger you want to go to 2nd
ok slightly depress the clutch to put the tranny in nuetral. with your toe on brake rev the with the heal to your rpm of 2nd gear going at the speed you are traveling or 4000rpm (mine has a 1000 rpm difference between gears) ok depress the clutch and feel how easay it goes in

remember double clutching is about saving th elife of your transmission by matching the input speed the engine to the out put speed ...tranny)

you'll soon find if your get good at it you dont have to ride the clutch very long when your down shift and the car will down shift without and lugging or kicking

**Ryan** · 7-23-05, 18:53

But if you're good enough at rev-matching and getting the revs right for the next gear it's not hard on your transmission and don't have to worry about double clutching

But yes, heel-toe is very important, and I'm still learning it...not easy. Left foot braking is also very important, and also takes some practice.

Laters
Ryan

**Samol_hok** · 7-23-05, 21:20

rev matching is double clutching

**Ryan** · 7-24-05, 1:33

Well, not to get into a pissing fit, but no...not quite....Double clutching is a way to more precicely rev match, but it is not needed. I can rev-match a car without ever using the clutch, you literally rev the motor to the rpm where going into a given gear and put it in gear, no clutch needed if properly matched. Not the easiest on your synchro's but it is do-able.

Double clutching is a method used to more precicely match revolutions whereby you push in the clutch, take the trans out of gear, let the clutch out, rev to the appropriate rpm, push in the clutch again and select the appropriate gear.

In modern synchromesh transmissions this is not necessary. The synchro's are there to do the synchroizing for you. Simply push in the clutch, pull trans out of gear, rev to appropriate RPM and select gear and let out clutch. If your transmission is healthy with good fluid, and you don't ask too much of it (I.E. trying to select 2nd gear moving at 60 mph with the engine at idle) then you should have no problems.

Actually try double clutching on an Auto-X course, and you'll find you're slower and asking waaay too much of your feet, especially in the corners where you've got to heel-toe your downshifts and still double work the clutch all in time for a corner coming at you at 30 mph with only 30' to react...Doesn't work, and I've yet to see a national level driver try it for exactly that reason

Laters
Ryan

**parisifal** · 7-24-05, 3:14

Oh god please don't ruin my thread.

YOU DO NOT DOUBLE CLUTCH!!!!!

The only time you do is if your synchros are completely shot or you do not have any. If either of those facts are true than you should not be racing but if you were than you need to get off the track. If you are a Professional than you wouldn't even be reading this so this does not apply to you.

To anyone else that does not get paid (or fund a private) to race a motorvehicle......DO NOT DOUBLE CLUTCH.

AND DO NOT RIDE YOUR CLUTCH. Please Samol_hok, learn more before you make any statement.

**Samol_hok** · 7-24-05, 21:27

please thouroughly explain through automotive science y double clutching is bad even in todays modern vehicles

first what does a syncros look like

they are brass rings splined to the selecting helicol gears (or input cluster assembley some FWD applications). Thay have adapting teeth to connect to the sliding sleeve assembly wich is the unit that completes path of power to the out shaft now what matches the speed
it would be a tapered ramp machined in those rings

have you ever overhauled a tranny where you noticed the ramp does not catch thus causing the gears to clash going in

Y? through wear forcing a difference in speed betweed the sliding sleeve assembly and the syncros

ok now how do lessin the oppsing force of the two units in nuetral going into gear
REV MATCH ok your in the proper range now both units are spin at less of a difference oh... whats this liss force meaning more life for the unit

ok now think how do most units defect

1. ABUSE
2.OVER loading
3.contamination

how is lessining the rotational force any of those 3

now please explain to me why through proper automotive science how this wil l cause harm to the unit

11-29-04, 21:56	#32 (permalink)
Caldur Kalin Location:	I drove a '94 Legend and I could force it into a slide that would tighten the turn for me. I've only been driving for a few months, being only 17 and all but I have confidence in my skill and I've driven a few different cars and could feel the difference. I can not wait until I get my own. Where can I find a track if I'm in north-ish New Jersey?
Caldur Kalin Location:

11-30-04, 11:20	#33 (permalink)
parisifal Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: iTrader: (0)	Wow, I haven't updated this thread in forever. fasturbo626 - not really, but I do admit testing some of the principles out in GT3 before I try it out in real life does help a bit, can't wait for GT4. Any of you should have that game, no it's not just a game, it's a simulator. I have done alot more track time this year being in Europe and all, not to mention having a much more capable car than the 6 (which I still have and enjoy.) I will put my experiences and tips on track driving, mainly focusing on preparation for your first time at a race track, since most help I've seen never focus on this vital area. I will also do a series of articles on different race tracks I've been to and how to prepare for each. I've done a few here in Europe which are great fun as well as being quite legendary. Once I return to the States early next year I will attempt a cross country track tour if finances and time allow. I know for sure I will be heading to Laguna Seca, Button Willow and Infineon when they have open track days. I am also considering Road America and a few other places, all will be highly dependent on finances but the first 3 will be top on my list. Only problem now is to find my next track car, everything points to either an FC or Miata, there really isn't anything as cheap and as fun as those two cars. An S2000 or FD is also a choice, but I'd rather have a car I can tear up than one I have to baby.
parisifal Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: iTrader: (0)	< C'est La Vie! >

11-30-04, 20:58	#34 (permalink)
Trent Ha-HA......banned Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: The Mosquito State, LA, USA Age: 24 iTrader: (0)	can't go wrong with the miata. great weight distribution, and a decent power/weight ratio (especially the turbocharged models of course). Many of the best drivers in the Delta and CENLA SCCA regions near me win with Miatas.
	'91 Miata: Planning bigger, badder turbo setup. Old setup gone. '07 Honda CR-V: The daily. '93 MX6 LS-ZE MTX Gone, but not forgotten.

12-3-04, 6:14	#35 (permalink)
Phillip Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Potchefstroom, South Africa iTrader: (0)	Under normal conditions I would start asking a lot of questions since this is about my biggest passion.... But some dudes were so f#$%^*g rude to me for fishing for info on racing and all about racing, so I'll just shut up now and see what kinds of info comes along that I can firstly understand and then use to expand the ultimate pleasure..... By the way I do find everything here very interesting. Keep it up.........
	The Prince is SMOKING

12-20-04, 18:27	#36 (permalink)
MissMouse Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Utah iTrader: (0)	I don't think you give the 6 enough credit. It has plenty of National Championships and trophies in STOCK form in stock class in the SCCA. (I ought to know, I won one the most recent of them) It's kinda like racing the 944. It leans a lot, but still sticks. The money from Mazda was nice though. BTW, my Stock Class MX6 did a sustained 1.03 G with a peak of 1.10 at the Wendover Pro-Solo this year. I've raced plenty of other cars and actually think that the 6 is faster through sweepers and slower through transitions. (Damn those Mini's!) "Drifting" or in the case of a FWD car "snap oversteer" is the slow way around a track. However, it is the fun way. Every time I do it I come off with a BIG grin. Oh well, give the 6 some credit, there is a reason it has 5 National championships in SCCA Stock Class and the Probe has none. (And plenty of people have tried in the Probe)
	I'll always remember my grandfathers last words... "Never argue with a torch bearing mob!"

1-9-04, 6:42	#31 (permalink)
fasturbo626 Banned Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: iTrader: (0)	parisifal, did you rip all this info off the gt3 game manual?

2-10-05, 20:53	#38 (permalink)
Michael A. Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Eastern Virginia iTrader: (0)	Miss Mouse: More details please.... How about more details of the setup of your car? Sounds like you have it very dialed in, and that info will help some of us out. I know, you don't want to give out hard-earned setting info, but the general specs like your springs, shocks, etc. I always wondered why the MX-6 did so well in that class, but now that I have one, I'd like to copy some of your ideas, while keeping it streetable. Thanks!
	1995 MX-6 LS, MTX, 17" Kosei. Eibachs. Freshened KLZE with Outlaw spacers now installed. Borla waiting to hook up.

2-14-05, 22:20	#39 (permalink)
68firebird Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: crestview, FL, USA iTrader: (0)	im probly did it wrong, but when i used to power slide i spun my front tires and locked up my back tires, cause when you first come into the corner, you do have a lot of pressure on the outside front wheel, and if youjust spin them you reliele pressure.

7-23-05, 12:34	#40 (permalink)
Samol_hok Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: calgary AB, Canada Age: 24 iTrader: (0)	DONT forget the art of double clutching while brake (HEEL and TOE) This is an essential to road racing so you dont destroy your cars clutch and transmission 1. ok 3rd gear your sitting at say 5000 rpm 2. Braking point varies upon the corner entry 3. ok now down shift.... your still braking ok no problem 4. now you really have to know your cars difference in torque ratios between gears ok say your at 3000rpm 3rd ger you want to go to 2nd ok slightly depress the clutch to put the tranny in nuetral. with your toe on brake rev the with the heal to your rpm of 2nd gear going at the speed you are traveling or 4000rpm (mine has a 1000 rpm difference between gears) ok depress the clutch and feel how easay it goes in remember double clutching is about saving th elife of your transmission by matching the input speed the engine to the out put speed ...tranny) you'll soon find if your get good at it you dont have to ride the clutch very long when your down shift and the car will down shift without and lugging or kicking

7-23-05, 18:53	#41 (permalink)
Ryan Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Salt Lake City, UT, USA Age: 25 iTrader: (0)	But if you're good enough at rev-matching and getting the revs right for the next gear it's not hard on your transmission and don't have to worry about double clutching But yes, heel-toe is very important, and I'm still learning it...not easy. Left foot braking is also very important, and also takes some practice. Laters Ryan
	Carmen likes to play with CONES PhotoBucket

7-23-05, 21:20	#42 (permalink)
Samol_hok Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: calgary AB, Canada Age: 24 iTrader: (0)	rev matching is double clutching

7-24-05, 1:33	#43 (permalink)
Ryan Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Salt Lake City, UT, USA Age: 25 iTrader: (0)	Well, not to get into a pissing fit, but no...not quite....Double clutching is a way to more precicely rev match, but it is not needed. I can rev-match a car without ever using the clutch, you literally rev the motor to the rpm where going into a given gear and put it in gear, no clutch needed if properly matched. Not the easiest on your synchro's but it is do-able. Double clutching is a method used to more precicely match revolutions whereby you push in the clutch, take the trans out of gear, let the clutch out, rev to the appropriate rpm, push in the clutch again and select the appropriate gear. In modern synchromesh transmissions this is not necessary. The synchro's are there to do the synchroizing for you. Simply push in the clutch, pull trans out of gear, rev to appropriate RPM and select gear and let out clutch. If your transmission is healthy with good fluid, and you don't ask too much of it (I.E. trying to select 2nd gear moving at 60 mph with the engine at idle) then you should have no problems. Actually try double clutching on an Auto-X course, and you'll find you're slower and asking waaay too much of your feet, especially in the corners where you've got to heel-toe your downshifts and still double work the clutch all in time for a corner coming at you at 30 mph with only 30' to react...Doesn't work, and I've yet to see a national level driver try it for exactly that reason Laters Ryan
	Carmen likes to play with CONES PhotoBucket

7-24-05, 3:14	#44 (permalink)
parisifal Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: iTrader: (0)	Oh god please don't ruin my thread. YOU DO NOT DOUBLE CLUTCH!!!!! The only time you do is if your synchros are completely shot or you do not have any. If either of those facts are true than you should not be racing but if you were than you need to get off the track. If you are a Professional than you wouldn't even be reading this so this does not apply to you. To anyone else that does not get paid (or fund a private) to race a motorvehicle......DO NOT DOUBLE CLUTCH. AND DO NOT RIDE YOUR CLUTCH. Please Samol_hok, learn more before you make any statement.
parisifal Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: iTrader: (0)	< C'est La Vie! >

7-24-05, 21:27	#45 (permalink)
Samol_hok Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: calgary AB, Canada Age: 24 iTrader: (0)	please thouroughly explain through automotive science y double clutching is bad even in todays modern vehicles first what does a syncros look like they are brass rings splined to the selecting helicol gears (or input cluster assembley some FWD applications). Thay have adapting teeth to connect to the sliding sleeve assembly wich is the unit that completes path of power to the out shaft now what matches the speed it would be a tapered ramp machined in those rings have you ever overhauled a tranny where you noticed the ramp does not catch thus causing the gears to clash going in Y? through wear forcing a difference in speed betweed the sliding sleeve assembly and the syncros ok now how do lessin the oppsing force of the two units in nuetral going into gear REV MATCH ok your in the proper range now both units are spin at less of a difference oh... whats this liss force meaning more life for the unit ok now think how do most units defect 1. ABUSE 2.OVER loading 3.contamination how is lessining the rotational force any of those 3 now please explain to me why through proper automotive science how this wil l cause harm to the unit