A quite protest

[M(y)x6gr8RiDe]

Why are you assuming I was referrring to you? I simply posted an answer for people who asked the question. Administration felt that there was reason enough for a temporary ban why don't you ask them?

[Goatcrapp]

Now that's the kind of contribution we need from our mods.

Demonstrative sarcasm. I was merely replying in a manner you seem to prefer.

If so, (a) no, it didn't occur to me, (b) participation in any "fued" was, if anything, sporadic and (c) I agree with Damien far more often than disagree. I tickle his as often as the system allows, always positive.

a> a fly rarely sees itself as covered in feces.

b> it seemed more often than sporadic. What you do with your karma is not known. It comes off as a feud. if its not walking like a duck, perhaps making that more evident with your posting, instead of the constant... well, THIS... would go a long way in helping your cause.

From what I gather, the mods would like a greater level of TACT than you and other members have been showing.

If "the rest of us" is just referring to the mods, then i suggest to you that that the mods can make this a pretty lonely place in a very short time by presuming that their opinions represent those of the usership.

actually, and i am not even the 1G mod, i've been approached by other members about the tension, the baiting, and now the bannings, etc. I am sure i am not the only mod fielding questions and opinions.. BUT - nice way to avoid actually answering. Do you deny you bait certain members, make snide comments in threads they haven't even participated in, and bring up topics from other, already closed threads? That's obnoxious.

You could always close it or delete it.

... OR...you can learn some tact and not merely quote, dissemble, and challenge the semantics of the rules as written, conveniently where and when it may suit your "points" the most.

How 'bout the mods?

well.. which ones? i am not sure if you mean the 1g staff, or staff in general.. either way... how about them? That was my opinion posted as a user of the 1g forum, since i have no mod privs there..

so.. how about them? The mods are an extremely affable bunch, who get along with the vast majority of the membership. They communicate frequently for both advice and opinions before major actions are taken, and its a staff that uses the mod card very sparingly. I am as much a member as I am a mod. I've been moderated, while being a mod, have had posts closed, deleted, etc... STILL i find it among the most tolerant bunch on the web. Maybe you're feeling picked on, but sometimes we ALL need to stop and ask if its really the rest of the world with the problem... or just ourselves.

Before you ask me to substantiate "the rest of the world" with signatures and notarizations, it was a figure of speech.

I think it behooves me to mention at this time that, contrary to what many have speculated on, panther did *NOT* (to the best of my knowledge) perform the plug-pulling.

correct.. which means more than one opinion of the situation before actions were taken.

T

here is no street racing thread.

omg. and you call others thick... there was one.. YOU know it, I know it, and any of the 500+ views it received, know it... which included many of those in this thread. Do you not see how asinine replies like that could be obnoxious? You will argue the semanitcs of it not being there NOW, to suit your own point.. but ignore the fact that it WAS, ignore your own participation in the crap that got it removed... and refuse to address the actual point that was brought up about it.. LOL this tactic reminds me of one of those dmv lawyers.

Are you intimating we should limit our posts to topics upon which we disagree? I think he has a modicum of credibility around here. I like to think that, on a topic this important (important to me, anyway, maybe not to you) it doesn't hurt to invoke that credibility.

Are you seriously ignoring the main point? I am more than intimating that you should either show some ability to walk away from your arguments or not bother posting, if you can't leave such comments out of other threads. Its about why you felt the need to throw snide remarks in, about other members as well as the moderation staff in this, a "for instance" example, which implies itself along with other threads where this action has taken place! its annoying to me as a MEMBER (mod hat off) to have to sift through, to get to the meat of a subject. This has nothing to do with invoking credibility.

Anyone in the lounge (or wherever) has access to the ignore list.

wow.. Is that really the way think? So that means they should all be burdened with having to ignore you instead of you just gaining a bit of tact with your posts?

you were moderated, and that behavior was addressed. It is our job to limit such feuds, and if, after many closed threads, a "next step" is required - thats when temp bans are handed out. Sorry, but we won't just leave it up to the members to ignore list other members, if they are consistently a problem.

Disagree, wholeheartedly. When we disagree (and we do, from time to time), the resulting discourse/dialogue (some might call it feuding, but they're missing the point altogether) raises the value of the site -- brings out facts and information that might otherwise not surface.

and modern skin grafting is a direct result of experiments performed in nazi germany. You might think it raises the value of the site.. but the answers will come anyway - the site can do without the bickering in the same way we could have arrived at better burn treatment without attempted genocide.

but, I DO agree with you there.. that was a major point of contention when the problems came to a head in the first place... you guys DO bring a ton of insight and intellect to the table. All the technical knowledge in the world means squat when a person's attitude sucks... when its clouded by redirection tactics... and when it continues long after someone of authority has asked that it stop. Why is it that technical discussions, with differing points, can be had in other parts of the site, without turning into a circus? hint: you have a large part to do with the "tone" these threads take.. hence the actions that were taken against you.

While I might carp about the way some mods do their jobs, I appreciate them doing their jobs nonetheless... <snip> That being said, if you would prefer "most of us" on your ignore list, I would wonder at your preference (not to mention your suitability) of remaining a mod.

more misdirection.. my suitability as a mod has nothing to do with my desire to ignore most of the problem members or flame baiters. Its a gut reaction, same as one's desire to do without the rantings of a lunatic on a street corner... it has nothing to do with my sutiability or preference of being a mod, though i do like the almost-tact with which you presented your appreciation for the mods and their duties. Funny you mention bedlam without seeing your own contribution to it.

Some mods have difficulty adhering to the very rules they are entrusted to enforce.

you mean your selective quotings of them? Lets ignore the common sense element entirely.. If its not written down, it doesnt apply.

But we're all human, as you've said just know, "We've all had our episodes".

we're having one now

But someone, somewhere is making things up in trying to justify my being banned. Note where M(y)x6gr8RiDe justifies my ban here on the basis of "Constantly bickering and blatantly calling out another person even after repeated private messages from mods".

I agree that someone who does that "even after repeated private messages from mods" deserves to spend a few days in the cooler. I bet you do, as well.

Trouble is, that isn't me.

I have only had one private message from one mod (on April Fool's day) this year.

I presume that M(y)x6gr8RiDe got his "repeated private messages" info from the mods forum and have no idea who propagated such fluff, but obviously M(y)x6gr8RiDe, for one, has bought into it.

re: ban - it was a 3 dayer. a time out. most sites dont call that a ban, they'll call it restricted access or whatever. Real bans are permanent, and no_one wanted that for either you or sick... that much i can assure you of.

if there is some conspiracy to get you banned permanently, you can also be certain it will be paid better attention to. If there are unsubstantiated claims flying around about what actions have been taken, PMs sent, or other warnings you supposedly ignored, when in fact they were never made, then obviously thats unfair to you and should be handled accordingly.

Some mod/mods obviously has/have "a serious problem simply being decent" as well.

You know who, I don't.

and those mods were asked to leave several months ago. There is as little tolerance for it on the mod staff as there is in the general membership. All mods have a say in who becomes staff and who is asked to leave before the decision is made.

as for current moderators, unless you mean me specifically, i cannot think of any who don't try their hardest to be decent to all members they moderate. I've yet to see one be harsh until long after it was pushed far enough where it would be justified. I've yet to see a mod lose it over any SINGLE instance.

[thrasher]

Not that I want to get in the middle of this, but its kinda loosing the point of a quiet protest.

[SixSick6]

- subscribes to thread~

[1FIERCEGT]

Is it getting louder in here or is it just me, was just so "quite" at one time eh Jon ok guys just trying to lighten things up a bit lets try to all learn from this and move on even if it's slowly at least lets try to move on just the same and not mill it over too much. We can all then see if things are getting better worse or anything in between. Not trying to force my POV or speak for eveyone but I think its a good suggestion and sometimes it's good to listen to me BUT I stress I hope all involved can make better from the experience. Nowlets get back to making it a "nice" place to visit

[SleepCounter]

Originally Posted by M(y)x6gr8RiDe

Why are you assuming I was referrring to you? I simply posted an answer for people who asked the question.

Let me review the bases for my assumption. The last three posts (before the thread was closed) looked like this:

Originally Posted by Jon

Theres no reasion to ban Kirk. He's the most intelligent person on this site.

Originally Posted by trickedmx6

Right On.

Originally Posted by M(y)x6gr8RiDe

Constantly bickering and blatantly calling out another person even after repeated private messages from mods isn't reason enough for a 3 day ban? I wasn't behind this but I can say that it was not unreasonable. So let them have their 3 day ban and cool off.

Yup, it sure looks to me in that context that you were referring to me.

Are you now claiming that I received no "repeated private messages from mods"?

Originally Posted by M(y)x6gr8RiDe

Administration felt that there was reason enough for a temporary ban

Perhaps they were under the misapprehension that I had received "repeated private messages from mods" and that justified their decision.

Originally Posted by M(y)x6gr8RiDe

why don't you ask them?

Lord knows I've tried.

Originally Posted by Goatcrapp

Demonstrative sarcasm. I was merely replying in a manner you seem to prefer.

That kind of response can get you temp banned.

Unless, of course, you are a mod.

Do you see any double standard here?

Originally Posted by goat

a fly rarely sees itself as covered in feces

Some mods do not see themselves as "maddeningly intolerable", either.

Originally Posted by goat

it seemed more often than sporadic.

Well, if that's how it "seems", then why worry about whether the "repeated private messages from mods" is a fabrication or not -- just pull the plug, by all means.

Originally Posted by goat

What you do with your karma is not known.

Known by Damien. I'm certain he'd apprise you if I was "making stuff up" about the number and flavour of the k-stuff which I've vouchsafed him, especially if the feud you imagine really existed.

Originally Posted by goat

It comes off as a feud. if its not walking like a duck, perhaps making that more evident with your posting, instead of the constant... well, THIS... would go a long way in helping your cause.

I'll try to be more beckeresque in the future, but i seem not to be very good at it.

Originally Posted by goat

From what I gather, the mods would like a greater level of TACT than you and other members have been showing.

I do so wish I could suffer fools more gladly. It would save me copious online time.

Originally Posted by goat

actually, and i am not even the 1G mod, i've been approached by other members about the tension, the baiting, and now the bannings, etc. I am sure i am not the only mod fielding questions and opinions..

It's a heavy burden, I already have acknowledged that.

Originally Posted by goat

BUT - nice way to avoid actually answering.

Much like the mods when I ask about "repeated private messages from mods". Red herrings come out and subjects get changed.

Originally Posted by goat

Do you deny you bait certain members,

Deny.

Originally Posted by goat

make snide comments in threads they haven't even participated in,

Deny.

Originally Posted by goat

and bring up topics from other, already closed threads?

Once. Two years ago.

Originally Posted by goat

That's obnoxious.

Not intended to be so -- sorry you see it as such.

Originally Posted by goat

... OR...you can learn some tact and not merely quote, dissemble, and challenge the semantics of the rules as written, conveniently where and when it may suit your "points" the most.

Good advice, all. Should be followed be everyone here. Even mods.

Originally Posted by goat

well.. which ones?

Which mods? I'm doing my best to adhere to 'goon's request to try to make this dialogue productive. I'm not certain pointing fingers is productive. And my definition of "beligerent, high handed, and condescending" is certainly different from yours, in any case.

I would much rather (and I'm certain 'goon would much rather) stick to facts, rather than value judgements.

Originally Posted by goat

i am not sure if you mean the 1g staff, or staff in general.. either way... how about them? That was my opinion posted as a user of the 1g forum, since i have no mod privs there..

You make it sound as though your opinion is of the same value as mine (also a user of 1g forum). I was not consulted regarding banning (like you were) -- hell I wasn't even recipient of the "repeated private messages from mods" that M(y)x6gr8RiDe implies I received.

I don't think you (or any mods) should be allowed to insult other users with impunity by invoking the caveat of, "I wasn't acting as a mod at that exact moment".

Originally Posted by goat

so.. how about them? The mods are an extremely affable bunch, who get along with the vast majority of the membership. They communicate frequently for both advice and opinions before major actions are taken, and its a staff that uses the mod card very sparingly. I am as much a member as I am a mod. I've been moderated, while being a mod, have had posts closed, deleted, etc... STILL i find it among the most tolerant bunch on the web.

Not complaining about their affability, just their actions, seemingly based on a horsefluff assertion of "repeated private messages from mods".

Originally Posted by goat

Maybe you're feeling picked on,

More like lied to (along with the rest of the usership) about the justification offered for my deletion.

Originally Posted by goat

but sometimes we ALL need to stop and ask if its really the rest of the world with the problem... or just ourselves.

Maybe when , "it gets to the point where i would place most of you on ignore" (like you opined eight messages ago), perhaps the problem is in the mirror, as well.

My problem is not with the rest of the world, it's with the mods taking action based on a falsehood propagated by one (or more) of their membership.

Originally Posted by goat

Before you ask me to substantiate "the rest of the world" with signatures and notarizations, it was a figure of speech.

Is that what "repeated private messages from mods" is? A figure of speech?

Originally Posted by goat

correct.. which means more than one opinion of the situation before actions were taken.

What I was trying to convey was that panther seemed to be taking flack for having pulled the plug. He, least of all the mods, deserves such flack.

Unless he is the one who propagated the "repeated private messages from mods" invention.

Originally Posted by goat

omg. and you call others thick... there was one.. YOU know it, I know it, and any of the 500+ views it received, know it... which included many of those in this thread. Do you not see how asinine replies like that could be obnoxious?

I know there was one. I invested some considerable time in trying to make what I consider a salient point, taking and uploading pictures and links and typing my prose.

I put it in the lounge, where I thought it appropriate for an issue that I guessed might be contentious.

It was deleted by a mod -- reason given: "oh. my. god. >_<".

I offer that action as an example of the "beligerent, high handed, and condescending" behaviour that you attributed to 1G fora in your "tripe" post.

If that deletion was done after consultation involving you, shame on you.

Originally Posted by goat

You will argue the semanitcs of it not being there NOW, to suit your own point..

My point was that it was removed.

Arbitrarily.

One great thing about the way that panther moderates, is that he takes the time to separate the wheat from the chaff and leaves behind the good stuff when he moves or deletes the "crap".

Originally Posted by goat

but ignore the fact that it WAS,

Trying to highlight the fact that it was removed. Irony train passed through and nobody noticed. I'll try to be less subtle next time.

Originally Posted by goat

ignore your own participation in the crap that got it removed...

The crap got removed along with much good stuff.

I guess it's easier for a mod to just delete an entire thread than to sift through and retain the good stuff (like panther does).

Originally Posted by goat

and refuse to address the actual point that was brought up about it..

I'm not certain what "the actual point" was about it. That Damien and i agreed about this subject, or the fact that I said so. Somehow one of those two is seen as creating tension. I honestly don't understand "the point", sorry for being so (dare i say it?) thick.

Originally Posted by goat

LOL this tactic reminds me of one of those dmv lawyers.

I hope I never stoop THAT low.

Originally Posted by goat

Are you seriously ignoring the main point?

Maybe I'm missing it. Are you seriously ignoring the fact that my ban was justified on the basis of "repeated private messages from mods" which no one seems to know about and which mods were supposedly sending?

Originally Posted by goat

I am more than intimating that you should either show some ability to walk away from your arguments or not bother posting, if you can't leave such comments out of other threads.

I can do that! Can you tell me the source of the "repeated private messages from mods" fluff?

Originally Posted by goat

Its about why you felt the need to throw snide remarks in, about other members as well as the moderation staff in this, a "for instance" example, which implies itself along with other threads where this action has taken place!

You'll have to rephrase that -- I'm having difficulty following it.

Please don't attribute any "need to throw snide remarks". I feel no such need.

[Goatcrapp]

yup.. you still don't get it

enjoy the rest of the thread. I won't participate in your twisting or misdirection anymore.. Wrestling with a pig is useless.. I'd get dirty, and the pig will just like it.

I'll answer whatever points you can actually make, via PM, but i suspect it will be more of this rhetoric.. you still failed to answer the more pertinent counterpoints i brought up... but whatever.

i WOULD like to point out that if you think i sit around taking notice of which posts of yours to close, delete or etc - you are delusional.. Or if you think i am consulted in decisions about you personally, or have the notion that i am the claimant of "multiple PMs" or whatever other paranoid accusations you would like to throw at the staff... you're just plain wrong.

however after seeing your continued rhetoric, i would have to say the 3 day ban was a service to the site. prior to this i had no opinion of you.. Judging by the amount of mods you are rubbing wrong, again i must say.. its not us dude.. its you.

[M(y)x6gr8RiDe]

Move on...

[1FIERCEGT]

Originally Posted by 1FIERCEGT

Is it getting louder in here or is it just me, was just so "quite" at one time eh Jon ok guys just trying to lighten things up a bit lets try to all learn from this and move on even if it's slowly at least lets try to move on just the same and not mill it over too much. We can all then see if things are getting better worse or anything in between. Not trying to force my POV or speak for eveyone but I think its a good suggestion and sometimes it's good to listen to me BUT I stress I hope all involved can make better from the experience. Nowlets get back to making it a "nice" place to visit

GEEZ guys did have the {invisibility} tag on or something...GEESH!! ok I vote to close this, well if Jon agrees...I would hate to see something entitles.."quiet protest" end up like this has already and looks to only get worse.

[Jon]

Eh, I started this in protest to the stupid new rules in 1G.

Whether or not Kirk actually got multiple PM's intrigues me (and I'm inclined to believe Kirk) but that wasn't my point.

[SleepCounter]

Originally Posted by goat

its annoying to me as a MEMBER (mod hat off) to have to sift through, to get to the meat of a subject. This has nothing to do with invoking credibility.

Well, invoking credibility was my intent, please do not attribute motives to me that are untrue.

Originally Posted by goat

wow.. Is that really the way think?

That's the way i deal with annoying posters. Evidently the way that you would as well, had you not undertaken mod duties, based on your previous comment ("it gets to the point where i would place most of you on ignore if it were acceptable, as a mod, to do so").

Is that really the way you think?

If so, we've discovered common ground.

Originally Posted by goat

So that means they should all be burdened with having to ignore you instead of you just gaining a bit of tact with your posts?

Actually, the "burden" is assumed by the software. Two mouse clicks and that poster is history.

Originally Posted by goat

you were moderated, and that behavior was addressed. It is our job to limit such feuds, and if, after many closed threads, a "next step" is required - thats when temp bans are handed out.

So there is no more "warnings"? Are you trying to tell me that there were no "repeated private messages from the mods" as claimed by M(y)x6gr8RiDe?

Why would he say something like that except that he believed it to be true?

Originally Posted by goat

Sorry, but we won't just leave it up to the members to ignore list other members, if they are consistently a problem.

What, then, is the intent of the ignore list, pray tell?

Originally Posted by goat

and modern skin grafting is a direct result of experiments performed in nazi germany. You might think it raises the value of the site.. but the answers will come anyway - the site can do without the bickering in the same way we could have arrived at better burn treatment without attempted genocide.

Nice metaphor: bickering=holocaust I hope that is not indicative of the mod mindset. If so, I think you all need a vacation.

Originally Posted by goat

but, I DO agree with you there.. that was a major point of contention when the problems came to a head in the first place... you guys DO bring a ton of insight and intellect to the table. All the technical knowledge in the world means squat when a person's attitude sucks...

Never mind the rules, it's attitude that count, right?

Originally Posted by goat

when its clouded by redirection tactics...

Still no answer to my repeated queries regarding "repeated private messages from the mods". Redirection tactics, indeed.

Let he who is without sin cast the first stone.

Originally Posted by goat

and when it continues long after someone of authority has asked that it stop.

Aha! Are we finally arriving at the "repeated private messages from the mods"?

Sometimes difficult to detect when a mod is being a user and when he is being a mod. Is there a way to tell?

In any case, I didn't receive those "repeated private messages from the mods".

Originally Posted by goat

Why is it that technical discussions, with differing points, can be had in other parts of the site, without turning into a circus? hint: you have a large part to do with the "tone" these threads take.. hence the actions that were taken against you.

After, of course, "repeated private messages from the mods".

Originally Posted by goat

more misdirection.. my suitability as a mod has nothing to do with my desire to ignore most of the problem members or flame baiters.

With respect, your exact words were, "more than one of us (i'll include myself here, we've all had our episodes on this site) have become maddeningly intolerable, and regardless of the wealth of knowledge any one person might represent, it gets to the point where i would place most of you on ignore". No mention of problem members or flame baiters.

Originally Posted by goat

Its a gut reaction, same as one's desire to do without the rantings of a lunatic on a street corner... it has nothing to do with my sutiability or preference of being a mod,

Gut reaction trumps the rules anytime, right?

Originally Posted by goat

though i do like the almost-tact with which you presented your appreciation for the mods and their duties.

It was genuine, no matter how much to would like to devalue it with smarmy put-downs.

Originally Posted by goat

Funny you mention bedlam without seeing your own contribution to it.

There are other, unpunished contributors, among them mods.

I abhor the double standard.

Originally Posted by goat

you mean your selective quotings of them? Lets ignore the common sense element entirely.. If its not written down, it doesnt apply.

Non sequitur. I almost always quote in entirety so that things are not taken out of context.

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