Hi guys... I'm not getting into this argument, but....
What mark says about the way NO2 works is correct...
more oxygen, plus another injector for more fuel = more power.
Turbo: pushes more air, ECU compensates and gives more fuel, although most aftermarket systems will have another injector.
At the end of the day, both systems are forced induction, and give a higher amount of mixture into the engine. Thats it... more in = more out. simple.
each has good and bad points..
NO2 is cheaper, gives more power.
downside, have to refill it, only gives power in bursts.
Turbo, no refills, power is more constant.
downside, it's more expensive.
On the tech side now..
Our V6.. well, it's seriously strong.. forged crank, very low piston velocity ratio, meaning it's low stressed to begin with.... this is why it lasts so long under normal conditions.
It has been proven that it will happily run 300bhp without any major mods as regards to strength.. more than that, and you have to get forged conrods etc
John
"A bus station is where a bus stops; a train station is where a train stops; on my desk I have a work station." Cardomain pageUK626Club UK & Ireland Member of the Year 2004, 2006 and 2007
Mark - I'm sure you will concede that there are many things to be seen in magazines such as Revs which are not street legal.
If you read my words carefully, you will note that I said an armed system is not street legal.
You can have the world's biggest install and a boot full of cylinders, and no traffic cop can do a thing...BUT if the whole system is connected - bottles, electronics, etc, so that it's immediately ready to use, that is illegal.
beginning to feel that I should bring my Aikido suit, weapons and Police training materials to TRAX!!!
"Ferrocious" The Mazda MX-6 Racing Project
Banjo B Mod, 65mm TB, TwinCAI, 304 s/s zorst (www.exhausts.uk.com), FD wheels w/Toyo T1R, H&R spacers KV85s, Alpine DAB, Sparco pads, Razo titanium pedals/GT weighted gearknob, Gumball3000 livery (yes I did go),green "Fusion" alien (abducted), blue instrument lights, airhorns, strut brace, footwell-mounted DP extinguisher red Silblades, NOS psi gauge, white-blue 5-LED sidelights, 6000K HIDs
I don't see how you come to the conclusion that it is illegal?
No-one has been prosecuted for it in the UK and if you have asked a policeman then unfortunately they know more about most laws than the average man on the street but they don't know them all. Thats why cases have to go to the CPS and they would not/ have not to my knowledge tried to prosecute.
What offence would you be committing BTW? Their would have to be a law called 'Having an installed system, having the bottle turned on and the switch armed law of 2003', even if it was against the law how on earth would they prove it?
I am thinking of adding Mark 626GT to my ignore list
Running a turbo and nitrous would make you run super lean? lol
Why don't you increase the size of the fuel jet? Not running lean, problem solved!
Making sure your fueling is right is important(more so on FI) but isn't hard to achieve. A good nitrous kit comes with a slightly rich fuel jetting anyway and as you increase in jet size the ratio is always towards running a little more rich for safety.
Don't believe everything you read on club forums, they will often mis guide people when they have found something that works well and want to keep it to them selves. This is really common in America but is starting to happen over here but more because alot of people over here trust the info they read from American sites.
Are you going to Trax? Cos if you are we could have a little natter about the REAL pros and cons and maybe I will convert you yet? If not, fair do's but you could learn some useful info
Anyway I should be washing the car and stuff, my engine bay is still a discrace
I am thinking of adding Mark 626GT to my ignore list
Originally posted by Mark 626GT Don't believe everything you read on club forums, they will often mis guide people when they have found something that works well and want to keep it to them selves. This is really common in America but is starting to happen over here...
And some people over here try to keep it to themselves when they've got N02 fitted.
Eh Mark???
No sorry mark not going to trax, the mx6 isnt ready yet. Just from my opion and many others ive had inc engine tuners, they have all said it reduces the life of an engine by a lot, and when you take in account the massive power gains you get its seems obvious its going to where an engine out quicker. I was comparing an engine that was orginally fitted with a turbo not a conversion kit. with a car with nos and i still belive a turbo car is stronger(not 1 that has been converted into a turbo, but 1 that was built with a turbo) for 2 reasons:
the engine was built stronger in the 1st place, ie stronger rods, forged pistons, lower compression etc etc
A turbo engine can do well over a 100000 miles if looked after, its got to otherwise, people wouldnt buy thses cars, and companys would get a bad name for selling them.
i like to see a car that runs nos every day last as long, as simply the engine wasnt designed in the 1st place to run that power.
Its not as easy to throw a set of bigger jets in LOL, for a start it will over fuel a car on tick over, and it wont past a mot! belive me ive been down this route, i done turbo conversion and this is what happened! its fine on full boost, but on tick over way to rich!
Ah glasshopper, you too have watched Mr Caradine pletending too be oliental....
p.s.
Quote:
A turbo engine can do well over a 100000 miles
Gareth, you will be pleased to know, the Mazda V6 is capable of over 400,000 miles if looked after. and that's without any work doing.
I would say, generally expect 200,000 miles, just remember regular oil changes, and only ever use a genuine Mazda filter.
John
"A bus station is where a bus stops; a train station is where a train stops; on my desk I have a work station." Cardomain pageUK626Club UK & Ireland Member of the Year 2004, 2006 and 2007
Originally posted by gareth231 . with a car with nos and i still belive a turbo car is stronger(not 1 that has been converted into a turbo, but 1 that was built with a turbo) for 2 reasons:
the engine was built stronger in the 1st place, ie stronger rods, forged pistons, lower compression etc etc
A turbo engine can do well over a 100000 miles if looked after, its got to otherwise, people wouldnt buy thses cars, and companys would get a bad name for selling them.
i like to see a car that runs nos every day last as long, as simply the engine wasnt designed in the 1st place to run that power.
It is true that a car designed to run more power (a turbo car for example) e.g. forged pistons, lower CR etc would be able to run MORE nitrous than a car without BUT what I am saying is that if a car can run say a 50 and not brake the first time why would it fail at any other time?
I suspect your answer would be increased wear to the internals of the engine (correct?). However nitrous DOES NOT INCREASE ENGINE WEAR! I know people are going to disagree with this statement but it's only because you haven’t really thought about it with an open mind.
Look at it this way the car is only doing the same thing IT WAS DESIGNED TO DO in the first place, the addition of extra oxygen and fuel allows this to happen faster but it's not is if the revs go higher than it would with normal driving, you still change gear before the red line. In fact nitrous flattens out your torque curve and makes the power lower down the rev range meaning you change gear EARIER cos you feel the acceleration return to normal well before the red line. This means you rev your car less (unlike other forms of tuning) and its revs that kill engines and increases wear.
Not to sound like an advert but over 75% of engine wear occurs at start-up and as John says the importance of the correct and clean oil in your engine probably makes the biggest difference to wear not hard acceleration as long as you don't snag too many revs.
IF the increased power increases engine wear (and it doesn't but just for this comparison lets assume it does) look at it this way; Over the weekend I drove 450 miles from down to Silverstone and back (with a few diversions + some runs up the 0 to 60 track). During that time I didn't use nitrous on the way down cos what’s the point when doing long distances and you are trying to save fuel and the same goes for the way back (apart from embarrassing some Astra GSI who thought he was funny) meaning I only used it for 3 runs and they were all under 7 secs . So lets say I used it for 30 seconds over two days when the car was operating for 8 hours, that’s about than 0.1% of the time the car was running. If I had a turbo fitted, (regardless of forged bits and bobs cos that has nothing to do with wear, that's just if some will brake or not) or I had done the same in an RS Focus (that I beat BTW) it would have been using its turbo 100% of that time.
A properly fitted and tuned nitrous kit with a progressive unit will not increase wear as it does the same as the turbo but doesn't generate the heat or pressure that they do but if they did they are generally used for such a small amount of time that if any wear did occur it would be INSIGNIFICANT.
People blame nitrous all the time when something lets go in their engines but it is very rarely the fault even with American made systems. It's people's bad understanding of nitrous that leads people to naturally assume it's at fault.
An example: "I fitted nitrous 3 weeks ago, had no problems with the car until now but last night when I was wanging the car off the rev limiter it blew and my mechanic says it was the NOS."
This person may have failed to mention a strange knocking from a worn bearing that would have failed in say 2 months and yes the expiry date of that component had been brought forward as nitrous can find weaknesses in components because they have been worked harder BUT it was bad maintenance in the first place that had lead to the damage been done MONTHS in advance and it had already gone past the point of no return and it was only a question of when rather than if this component would fail regardless of whether nitrous had been used.
To clarify, a well maintained engine that is general good working order would not suffer any adverse damage or wear.
Quote:
Originally posted by gareth231
Its not as easy to throw a set of bigger jets in LOL, for a start it will over fuel a car on tick over, and it wont past a mot! belive me ive been down this route, i done turbo conversion and this is what happened! its fine on full boost, but on tick over way to rich!
I don't understand what you are saying here.
Why would increasing the size of the fuel jet in the fuel solenoid affect tick over when the system is only activated at WOT (wide open throttle) or full throttle?
P.S. you don't have to have your system activated to run and pass an MOT.
I am thinking of adding Mark 626GT to my ignore list
Dave im still not convinced as at the end of the day your putting a big strain on the orginal parts that werent meant to handle that amount of power in the 1st place, okay your not putting them under high forces all the time, but as soon as the nos is running the engine is being pushed past its orginal design limits.
Were have to meet up on the next meeting, and we can argue as much as we want ... seriously i would like to see the car and its setup, and maybe take me for a spin in it, just to see what its like compared to a turbo`d car
About fuelling.... i was running a escort rally car which was turbo`ed this was done through a carb not injection, so the only way i could get fuelling sorted was with big jets, if it had been injection i could had used a 5th injector, it all depends on the setup
The parts in the engine are well over engineered and that's the excess that you are exploring really.
I can see what you mean when you talk of the fuelling with the turbo without having an ECU that you can program in a fuel map to solve the problem you describe. The stock fuel injectors have nothing to do with the extra fuelling in a wet nitrous set up though and that's the reason I asked.
Yer, no probs I will take you out and by then I should have got a few things sorted with the car that need doing like the fundamentals, ignition, uprated fuel pump etc. Should be good.
I am thinking of adding Mark 626GT to my ignore list
Dave im still not convinced as at the end of the day your putting a big strain on the orginal parts that werent meant to handle that amount of power in the 1st place,
Well, firstly, it's Mark you're having the dual with
secondly, our UK spec is 164bhp.. J-Spec is 198bhp (nothing strengthened) and Mark is using a 25 shot.. 164 + 25 = 189bhp
so really. it's within design spec.. and as I said before, these engines run very happy at 300bhp without any strengthening.
Even with a 50 shot, it's negligable.
as for ultimate power.. twin turbo, and mods = 550bhp.. and at Trax, Kyle mentioned one running 800+bhp (shame it wasn't fitted to a car)
And to hopefully end the debate.......
At idle, engines are under very little stress.. at full load, they are under considerably more stress.. Agree so far gents?
Anything that increases the power output of an engine, IS putting more strain on it.. and as such it WILL wear out sooner than if completely standard.
The arguement between NOS and Turbo could go on for years with you two...
A perfectly set up turbo would be fine... tweek the boost too far and blow the engine..
A perfectly set up NOS system would be fine... increase the shot too far, and blow the engine..
Both would blow due to excess strain being put on internal components.. and the resulting failure of them.
John
"A bus station is where a bus stops; a train station is where a train stops; on my desk I have a work station." Cardomain pageUK626Club UK & Ireland Member of the Year 2004, 2006 and 2007
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