Well folks, as the 'reply' button on Goatcrapps' announcement was disabled, I thought I'd start a discussion thread to gauge how we all feel about it.
Please try and keep comments constructive and useful - but don't be afraid to highlight any 'problems' you have with the new 'way'.
My feelings are as follows -
1) I know and understand the proxy language used to say "Put up and shut up", and don't appreciate it. I've always appreciated the communal feeling on this site, and very rarely have I got involved in questioning it - but this has got to stop.
2) There is a reason the UK side has self imposed 'distance' from the rest of the site. I think everyone on the UK side knows what this is - shall we call it a 'cultural' divide? Recently, imposition of this alien culture cost us most of our moderating team, and some members. In the past it has cost us many members. It will soon cost the UK side even MORE members. This isn't 'fostering' a bad habit - this is protecting what is a uniquely helpful, fun and useful UK club from unwholesome interests.
3) We don't want intervention from your team Goatcrapp, we want self control - and enough moderators present in the UK side specifically to be able to do that. Poor old Oddball Paul has enough crap to deal with, without being the sole person responsible for policing this forum. Normally we don't have any problems - but when we get members who have gone out of their way to curry favour with U.S. side moderators so that they can run riot on here and get away with it, we need an independent UK team to sort it out. Free from interference from the other side of this 'cultural' divide.
4) It is suggested that rules are there to be enforced. Rules like anything are subject to interpretation - who interprets these rules? You and your team do. If your interpretation is wrong, do we on the UK side put up and shut up? Potentially because your cultural disposition is different to ours? That sounds awfully George Bush. Laws should not be blind - I suggest you and your team shouldn't be.
5) Moderation Choice - Can the UK members VOTE on who gets to moderate the UK side? 3 mods as a minimum would help. That way we won't get any problems with the 'cultural' divide affecting us again.
"We simply don't have the manpower to sift through months long arguments with nuances of the community that we aren't aware of... If there is an established case history of reported incidents, it would make the decisions not only easier, but quicker, and without the petty squabbles that often result."
This quote supports my motion. Similarly, having mods that know ALL about the nuances means you can leave our 'petty' issues to us in the UK side to sort out. WIN / WIN?
If this post is deleted, or locked down - I'm off. I don't want to be subject to an American style autocracy. Prove me wrong oh management team in the sky.
Makes a lot of sence.
Can't quite understand why they don't pass it over, would be one less problem for them. We have already proved we are more aware about what goes on over here than are. This last issue would probably have never happened.
I am sure with the new more open-minded "Obama Era" in the USA, the US Moderators will see that you and other UK members make a lot of sense in their comments.
" Hands Across the Sea " I say, afterall Americans and Brits are the strongest of allies.
As you all know on here, I love going to America and my friends over there are very open people and awesome hosts. I must say that Americans by large are some of the most friendly people on earth.
We Brits are very friendly too although we tend to be more reserved at first.
" Two nations divided by a common language ", you know.
For the record - it wasn't "disabled" by any act of malice.. its an announcement. Announcements have never been open discussions.. You might be confusing the idea with a sticky thread or similar.
Also - I welcome all input, questions and concerns, but wasn't opening a discussion thread - hence the choice of announcement. I've received several PM's already, both in support of this move as well as calling me the devil, by the UK members. I'm happy to see a thread like this... But i see you've already jumped to your conclusions right from the greyed out reply button... so i have little hope of reaching you, particularly.
To address your questions and comments.
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Please try and keep comments constructive and useful - but don't be afraid to highlight any 'problems' you have with the new 'way'.
I find it hard to believe you actually wrote the above statement and still managed to maintain the tone of resentment you did. Was the tone useful? constructive? If you wanted to paint yourself as an impartial individual... you've failed. For the record- thats exactly why you were decided against, for moderatorship. You're not nearly open minded or impartial enough, even though you seem to believe you are. In fact i'm placing bets here that you're voicing more of a bruised ego, rather than legitimate concerns for the future of this section.
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My feelings are as follows -
1) I know and understand the proxy language used to say "Put up and shut up", and don't appreciate it. I've always appreciated the communal feeling on this site, and very rarely have I got involved in questioning it - but this has got to stop.
What, exactly, has to stop? The announcement was telling you that for the most part - the status quo is to be maintained, with some small changes. Please be more specific, if you wish to fit your own criteria of "useful and constructive"
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2) There is a reason the UK side has self imposed 'distance' from the rest of the site. I think everyone on the UK side knows what this is - shall we call it a 'cultural' divide?
Are you speaking for yourself , or everyone? I can name quite a few very valuable members who readily venture into the forums as a whole, and while there is distinct cultural differences - we manage well enough. Regardless - as I already stated in the announcement - i'm not all that interested in continuing bad habits. That's right... I'm calling this self imposed alienation a bad habit. Its ridiculous, and holds both communities back. Those who wish to remain an isle unto themselves, may do so..
However, i won't continue this ridiculous practice of creating RULES around it, precipitated close-mindedness from the top down.
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Recently, imposition of this alien culture cost us most of our moderating team, and some members.
Who exactly? Other than Paul - you haven't had an active moderating team in almost a year... When they did decide to leave, it was of their own volition, and was a response to Autoforum's assertion of ownership over the site. They are not american, by the way (it shouldn't matter, but i suspect it does, to you.)
Before you, in your limited knowledge about me or my team, insinuate that this is another auto-forums esque move, I'll have you know that the site would likely not exist at all anymore, if it were not for the team's intervention and vehement fighting with autoforums. We finally came to an understanding with eachother, and while neither party particularly likes the other.. we've gotten ourselves to a relatively livable situation. The alternative is to shut down the site.
Anyway - that's not the point... you went from not having any active moderation, except Paul to... not having any active moderation except Paul. Seems to me like things have remained exactly the same. The major difference is that I've made an announcement about it, and have asked you to make some painless changes in the way you handle things, so as to include the rest of the staff that fights so hard to keep this place alive.
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In the past it has cost us many members. It will soon cost the UK side even MORE members. This isn't 'fostering' a bad habit - this is protecting what is a uniquely helpful, fun and useful UK club from unwholesome interests.
How, specifically, has my announcement threatened the sanctity of this section in any way, shape, or form? How have I cost you any members Ben? How has my alien culture done so? We are not autoforums. Please, get that straight. You seem to be running about with several misconceptions of how you will be treated by my super-mod staff.
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3) We don't want intervention from your team Goatcrapp, we want self control - and enough moderators present in the UK side specifically to be able to do that.
my team keeps this site alive. my team negotiated past the issues with autoforums that would have otherwise sunk us into oblivion a few months ago. I'm sorry you're not in the mood for my team's presence - but you don't have the choice. Self control? I'm happy to give it when suitable moderators can take over. You're speaking as though you've already been jailed. You've maintained a large amount of autonomy these past several years, and that hasn't changed.
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Poor old Oddball Paul has enough crap to deal with, without being the sole person responsible for policing this forum.
Might I suggest you let Paul speak for himself? Paul isn't the sole person responsible for this section. The entire supermoderator staff is, as well. I can assure you they are all fair-minded individuals. Given the current level of bull[shizzle] emanating from certain members here - perhaps having their input as an alien culture could benefit you. If you really can't stomach the thought of them helping out... Well - you certainly seem able enough to set up and run a forum of your own.
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Normally we don't have any problems - but when we get members who have gone out of their way to curry favour with U.S. side moderators so that they can run riot on here and get away with it, we need an independent UK team to sort it out. Free from interference from the other side of this 'cultural' divide.
I found the problem to be completely opposite. The fact that you guys kept so much to yourselves meant that the rest of the people who run this site had no idea that there were shenanigans going on. The minute things were brought to my attention, I responded. Do you care to argue against that? Because I have logs of everything and made it all public to my supermod staff. I think, maybe 12 hours might have passed once i was notified. Had I been made aware of the rule breaking and potentially scandalous actions earlier - we could have proceeded with far better information. I understand if you don't want to be a part of the site in general.. but I am your admin now.. there's no excuse for leaving the staff in the dark so intentionally when it comes to the site's rules.
No one gets away with running riot, when we know about it - but when those actions are obscured by this ridiculous notion of needing to maintain sovereignty from the rest of the site... combined with a completely inactive moderation staff... that represents a failure of the system which needs to be addressed. That last issue became abundantly clear.
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4) It is suggested that rules are there to be enforced. Rules like anything are subject to interpretation - who interprets these rules? You and your team do. If your interpretation is wrong, do we on the UK side put up and shut up? Potentially because your cultural disposition is different to ours? That sounds awfully George Bush. Laws should not be blind - I suggest you and your team shouldn't be.
Thats absolutely correct.. myself and my team do. This whole damn post of yours speaks of sour grapes, but little substance. If you knew anything about me and my team (which you don't nor have you bothered to try before flinging your despise at us) you'd know that we maintain an open dialogue among all moderators - not a select few... and Paul weighs in very heavily as part of my super mod staff. Do you not trust him, as well, or are you complaining just for the sake of complaining?
Have I or any of my staff shut a door to you? Has anyone who reached out to us in a reasonable manner been told to "put up and shut up" - ever? Ben - I come down harshly on any of my mods who do, and have a very open door dialogue with anyone who wishes to pursue one with me, even when they are busy cursing my existence and calling me the worst thing that ever happened to mx6.com.
I'll say this bluntly.. you're making things up, if you are referring to me, with these attributions.
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5) Moderation Choice - Can the UK members VOTE on who gets to moderate the UK side? 3 mods as a minimum would help. That way we won't get any problems with the 'cultural' divide affecting us again.
Sorry but no.. not at this time. There's an undercurrent tone here that i dislike. You call it cultural divide, i call it being happy to be ignorant and close-minded. There WERE several candidates for moderatorship... and had this clique not made itself painfully obvious... they would already have been voted on by your own members and installed. I'm glad i got to see this side of you before voting you in. When other members are willing to step up who are not only suitable, but able (and willing) to meet the call of moderator... I have no problem placing them to a vote, AFTER reviewing their history on this site to make sure we don't make another wrong choice - as was made with my original hasty decision (which brought this to a boil in the first place)
94 mx6 - you name it - I did it, came up with it, tried it and rejected it or just plain still have it. 93 mx3 - klze, i/h/e, rims and paint.. daily driver. 98 jeep GC - 5.9L with bolt ons, lifted, locked. 32x10.5 Goodyear MTR winter/ 30x9.5 bfg ta/ko summer
In fact - if i were guilty of the character attributes you allege against me, i wouldn't be giving this so much careful consideration.. I wouldn't give two craps enough to even post the announcement. I'm sure these points will be lost on someone who has already made up their minds, but i assure you.. the future of these forums, and this section included, weighs heavily on my mind. Poor old goatcrapp doesn't have the time for all this crap, but makes it anyways because this site is part of his blood and soul - as it is for many of you too.
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"We simply don't have the manpower to sift through months long arguments with nuances of the community that we aren't aware of... If there is an established case history of reported incidents, it would make the decisions not only easier, but quicker, and without the petty squabbles that often result."
This quote supports my motion. Similarly, having mods that know ALL about the nuances means you can leave our 'petty' issues to us in the UK side to sort out. WIN / WIN?
What I was trying to point out (and was missed, apparently) was that the whole site is a community. There is absolutely no reason why things like that need to be left unchecked for so long. Doing so leads to "months long arguments being dumped in my lap.." instead of being able to look through a record of reported issues and realizing the problem members from the bystanders more easily. Ultimately though - a moderator isn't to be a referee. The schoolyard (tantamount) arguments being had are not a mod's business - nor would i want a mod who felt it WAS his or her business to decide on. In fact I would want a mod who placed equal amount of examination on the way he handles things, as some of you are placing on the way *others* due things. To put it plainly.. i do NOT want a nosy-nancy who is so busy telling everyone else how they are wrong, that they can't see their own failings, as a moderator.
The rules being broken have been, are being, and will be addressed. That's all you guys were asking for, in this situation, right?
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If this post is deleted, or locked down - I'm off. I don't want to be subject to an American style autocracy. Prove me wrong oh management team in the sky.
Ben.
I resent this Ben. In what way have I been heavy handed with this section? In what way have I autocratted you? You're accusing me and my team of some pretty ingenuous thoughts and actions and frankly - they are product of your imagination.
There was an erroneous decision made on my part when trying to find a temporary mod for this section until ALL of the moderators could sit down to discuss.. AS SOON as some light was shed on the situation - it was corrected.
Why would I close this post? That statement only proves you are speaking about things without giving too much thought to whom you are speaking about.
Go ahead and call me the devil. I won't like it, and will defend myself in the thread.. but i'd sooner ban myself than close a discussion that remains within the rules of this site. Learn that about me and you'd likely change your song... we might even get along better when you realize i'm not out to get you or the UK section.
94 mx6 - you name it - I did it, came up with it, tried it and rejected it or just plain still have it. 93 mx3 - klze, i/h/e, rims and paint.. daily driver. 98 jeep GC - 5.9L with bolt ons, lifted, locked. 32x10.5 Goodyear MTR winter/ 30x9.5 bfg ta/ko summer
Funny. I had no idea who Goatcrapp was - didn't even look him up when I saw his name in a thread. Didn't think twice about it and went on to browse the UK forum as I have done for 6 years.
However, as time went on, I could see UK mods were not posting as much as they used to. I was very dissappointed when they stopped. I see now it is Autoforums' fault for this but, at first, my impression was, albeit falsely, that the moderators/supermods or whatever in the US had sold us out and I was being bombarded with ads within posts and that somehow UK mods had left because of it. Maybe this Goatcrapp was to blame.
@Goatcrapp. I'm glad you made this post. I have a better idea of what kind of person you are. I can see you are quite an articulate man who ponders what he writes. But, before finding out that Autoforums' were to blame for my MX6 club going bananas, you weren't my favourite person. Is that my fault due to ignorance? Or should the omnipotent club organisers have kept me up to date with what was going on?
I've not renewed my subscription until this episode is over with. I hate club politics but felt I had to post.... I feel like moses coming down from the mount after the elusive one has spoken lol.
Mark
TWR full body kit, mesh grill, Custom paint: Bluish black, ice violet flake, CAI, Denso irridiums, Magnecors 9mm, SS headers Scorpion Exhaust, KYB shocks, Spax springs - lowered 35mm, HIDs, Reverse glow dials & chrome rings, Momo gear knob, RR Racing short shifter, 18" Team Dynamics RVRII alloys, Toyo T1R's, EBC Green stuff, Red calipers with Mazda decals, High performance engine mounts, Chrome boot struts, Genuine Isotta Vallelunga.
The only reason I (and perhaps others in the uk section) don't venture out of the uk section much is more to do with time, I spend 20 mins a day on here keeping up to date. If I was active on the whole site I imagine I'd need a few hours a day. I didn't even notice any divide to be honest, I just assumed other were the same as me and kept to specific sections due to time constraints (that includes mods, I assumed they didn't post here much because they didn't have time).
Also the fact that the cars are so different in the different countries means that one persons knowledge of the car may not apply as much to my car. And laws/regulations, part availability, etc are all very different in the various countries. I don't imagine an American member would know much about passing British MOTs or what parts are available at halfords (poor example I know but the parts places I know are local only).
I think the problems don't exist as much as people think, but then that's my opinion and everyone is entitled to one.
Goatcrapp - excellent reply. I congratulate you. For proving my point.
Let's get down to it.
1) You use words like 'my' and 'I' alot in your posts.
2) You have your very own 'Goatcrapp & Friends' forum (see I do venture out and read things.)
3) 'Your' team saved the entire forum - so it owes you one right?
This is your happy little personality cult Goatcrapp. Good for you.
I didn't get personal in my first post Goatcrapp - you have done so throughout your entire reply. I think that is a low blow, and one that really shows your calibre.
I have not, and won't ever ask or want to be a moderator on this site. I challenge you to get ONE quote of me asking to be a moderator on this site. Even from peoples PM system. You assume too much sir, more fool you. I had people in mind who would be suitable to help Paul, but obviously thats not wanted.
Initially, I had no problem with you Goatcrapp, even writing out the initial thread. I felt that it was 'lag' from the previous administration and issues with implementing a new moderation system. Now that you have accused me of trying to manipulate the good people on this forum, called my character into question, and generally tried to derail this debate into questioning ME rather than the issues at hand, I won't give your poor excuse for a response any more shrift.
Would you care to illucidate us as to which UK side members are emanating this 'bullshizzle' you blithely refer to? If you are accusing people of things, at least do it openly Goatcrapp. Oh, kindly let us in on this clique you are referring to as well - pray tell.
You mention the system failed - YOUR system. Not ours. The UK section waited patiently for our moderation issue to be dealt with - squit all happened. I place that blame squarely on your shoulders.
The simple fact that you have not ONCE asked publicly, for suggestions on how to improve things in the UK section tells me we don't have a voice, or a choice. Your word is law. You legislate, rather than mediate. I'm quite happy for you to carry on thinking you're a great administrator, open minded and even handed. Quite clearly this is inaccurate. Saddam's not dead - he's right here.
Did you benefit from the Windy accounts generosity at any point? Open question, simple answer required.
Elmer - I'd love to get to know some more of you guys. You having no clue who i am or thinking i was part of the AF team speaks volumes about the separation that has already been mentioned. Likewise, I haven't run into you before, and should an administrative issue come across involving you.. I'd have little to go on (good or bad). *edit - as a sidenote... though i can't officially endorse this.. If you contact the member compnut he can provide a pretty exhaustive list of adblock filters that he has compiled, which takes care of the vast majority of advertising. adblock DOES tie you to mozilla firefox however.. so if you're not a user - i don't know what can accomplish the same function within IE6 or 7.
RJS - No need to explain yourself or why you don't visit the rest of the forum.. I'm not looking to blame, nor force anyone out of this section. This is the most successful regional section of this site, so its easy to see how this has become a family and a very comfortable place. My intent is purely administrative.. when issues arise, and they get escalated - there is a process by which it can and should be reported. For MOST members of this section that means absolutely no change at all.. for they are neither causing trouble nor looking for it in others. Having the staff left in the dark simply isn't beneficial to anyone involved. I agree with you regarding the problems. they exist, but aren't big. My intent with the announcement wasn't to create a mountain out of a molehill, but to simply catch everyone up with what has been going on in the mod forum and reassure you guys that the status quo is still more or less intact.
ben... so far - you are the only one creating such a mountain. You're the only one trying to intentionally spread dischord, where there is none. You have a close minded, self entitled point of view, and you seem to be happy as a pig in [shizzle], in your own ignorance.
So i'll say it as nicely as i can.
If you are THIS unhappy about it - feel free to leave. Go start your own forum.. Make it as "alien culture free" as possible, and you and your self masturbatory cronies can have a big laugh at poor old mx6.com. You are not being held here by force, nor are you under any sort of contract. The section isn't changing, nor do the things you accuse me of even begin to approach the truth.. You have lost no liberties here, and you have suffered no insult from me, until this very accusatory thread. I will not assist you any further with your own personal crusade here. You're unhappy. Do something about it, then. Take a constructive part in helping us to prepare and shape the site for the future... or, as you put it.. put up and shut up. Anything else is just background noise. I'd love for you to be a constructive part of this process, but like i said way above... you've already made up your mind, SO in turn, i have little hope. Those who want their voices heard need to have a voice worth hearing. Yours so far, has merely been to incite.
If you had approached me with some actual ideas on how to fix what is obviously broken, and if you had come with an open enough mind to exchange ideas.. i wouldn't think of you as a complete douche.. however you didn't, and now I do.
You happily accused me of unsubstantiated cruelties towards you and your friends in this section... You have FAILED to address several of my very direct questions to you, and are sitting there, simply stirring the pot for your own... what is it? enjoyment? need to be noticed? lack of hugs as a child? Whatever the reason is - you're a whiner. You offer little in terms of ideas, and a lot in terms of passing the buck with your own instigations tied around it in a knot. You invoke others' voices as though to lend credence to your own arguements, and you speak for all, even when not everyone shares your myopic view.
Ironic that you yourself have neither said anything useful or constructive.. your own criteria for this thread. You simply continue to bang the pot high over your head screaming "its unfair". Sorry ben, I gave up those games as a child.
Lets examine the aforementioned failure of the system, ben... YOU failed. Or rather - your mindset...and everyone with your sequestered mindset. You chuck spears in my direction and the direction of my team... (yes - my team.. a team i helped put together with scooby over the past several years, and am now charged with being the caretaker for into the future.. thanks for all your help by the way with that. ) and act surprised when i bit back a little?
Thats why I'm trying to fix this ridiculous separation of our two communities. Its real easy for you to jeer from the bleachers, but the fact is - you're NOT running the site.. you're incapable of it. So continue jeering. I have a job to do.
You'll be happy to note that I'm through responding to your petty, insulting, self inflated rhetoric. if anyone ELSE has some questions, input, ideas, or concerns - i'll happily debate things out. Ben - toodles for now, sunshine.. If you pull your head out of your ass long enough to have a productive discussion on how to right the wrongs - I'll be all ears.
Last edited by Goatcrapp : 7-16-09 at 23:52.
94 mx6 - you name it - I did it, came up with it, tried it and rejected it or just plain still have it. 93 mx3 - klze, i/h/e, rims and paint.. daily driver. 98 jeep GC - 5.9L with bolt ons, lifted, locked. 32x10.5 Goodyear MTR winter/ 30x9.5 bfg ta/ko summer
Okay guys everyone step back and cool down. Things are escalating quickly and we need to keep some kind of perspective here.
Starting a thread bashing a moderator is not a good idea. We are here to facilitate the daily functioning of the site by removing spam, moving threads, and basically acting as mx6.com librarians in a sense. Some of our other duties include banning members who spam the site or rip people off (WHEN WE KNOW ABOUT IT) and we are also here to mediate any arguments that arise and put them down as necessary. We have our own section(s) of the site to discuss problems on the site as well as any requests for changes to existing parts of the site. We have a whole section dedicated to the REPORTED POST function. When someone reports a post it is added to this section for moderator review. It just seems like nobody likes to report posts.
We have many moderators to provide a series of checks and balances in our ranks. If one of us takes something too seriously, the person will ask another moderator to look at the same situation and provide their own input. This is exactly what has just happened here. I'm going to try to provide my own insight based on a VERY limited relationship with the UK section of the site and its many members.
I understand that some of you are unhappy but the fact remains that nobody has been level headed enough to get past their own ego and provide a helping hand.
Truth be told, ALL of the moderators and administrators were minutes from abandoning mx6.com AS A WHOLE when autoforums took over until I reached out to Nadeem (Administrator) and asked him what I could do to make things better. I was not doing so to kiss ass or anything along those lines. He offered me an administrative position and I turned him down. I was doing it so that our site and our community could grow and live on. This in turn helped the other moderators and administrators to put their own feelings aside and start working productively towards a better forum. Before you judge "Goat's team" please understand that we are a very diverse group for a reason.
To be perfectly honest, it bothers me that the vast majority of the UK AND Canadian members don't venture out of their own sections of the site. I myself have worked very hard on a few threads that try to illustrate the differences between mx6's in different countries and help from any of you guys would have been invaluable. I believe Paula was the only one who gave me any information at all.
Last edited by Chefsp0t : 7-17-09 at 2:10.
My vBGarage
1995 Mazda Mx-6: Money pit/driveway decoration
personally the only reason I dont venture out is because I worry about the differences between our cars and the parts, so what I mean is I wouldnt want to read up on a fix for something, only to find the screws are different or the part is shaped different. Odd I know but I like the absolute certainty that the UK forum offers for our cars, thats it, nothing more.
I feel the points raised both sides have blown out of proportion, and both sides prove each others points it seems. I have been on this club for a while now, and this is the first time I have seen things blow up like this, its very tense, so I hope something positive gives soon.
personally the only reason I dont venture out is because I worry about the differences between our cars and the parts, so what I mean is I wouldnt want to read up on a fix for something, only to find the screws are different or the part is shaped different. Odd I know but I like the absolute certainty that the UK forum offers for our cars, thats it, nothing more.
That is perfectly understandable but how will we ever know unless we compare things? Why should we have such a division on the site? We all speak a common language and yet we don't try to further the collective knowledge of the mx6, which is the reason any of us are here.
It would be very easy to start a thread with the part differences if there are any. I've got most of the body and interior differences covered in this thread. Warning, lots of pictures. http://www.mx6.com/forums/2g-mx6-gen...-pictures.html (GUIDE: USDM vs. JDM vs. ESPEC Mx6 w/ Pictures) It aggravates me to think about how misinformed I may have been and nobody has stepped forward with additional information or corrections to my own presumptions.
I'm all about making the community better but it is impossible to do so behind the closed doors of another section of the site. I think you guys would find that the vast majority of the snooty Americans (and Canadians) are rather different than you think they are. Let's not forget, oceans divide us and political propaganda and world news distort our perceptions of each other but we do share many common interests.
Last edited by Chefsp0t : 7-17-09 at 3:15.
My vBGarage
1995 Mazda Mx-6: Money pit/driveway decoration
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Goatcrapps' Announcement - Discussion
) and act surprised when i bit back a little? 
