Subaru WRX STi vs. Chevrolet Corvette C5 - Page 7

**Scooby** · 7-31-02, 11:35

Although Silver's argument is weak and based on some misconceptions, he makes some valid points.
American vs. Japanese: both the styling and engines are of distinct different design, this was more true in the past. But in the last 10 years we have seen American car manufactures emulate Japanese designs, including adding higher-revving, smaller displacement engines.
Reliablility is almost a moot point anymore. Both American AND Japanese cars are typically VERY reliable. Sure Toyota is more reliable than other cars, but only marginally.
The only real valid point Silver made has to do with fit and finish of the cars. Here is where you still see a big difference in American vs. Japanese cars. The Corvette Z06 is an awesome car, very well engineered, beautiful, fast, but take a caliper and measure the gap between body panels around the car, measure the deviation. Then go to a Toyota Corolla and do the same. Also drive a Z06 for 5 years and a Corolla for 5 years. The Z06 is going creak and squeak and rattle and the Corolla likely will not. I know this is speculation, I have not driven in a 5 year olf Z06 (I have driven in a new one) but I have driven in MANY older Corvettes (3-20 yrs old). The two things that stuck out in head were "Wow, this car is fast" and "Wow this car was poorly built, it rattles and squeaks, etc.."
Do the same comparison to a Cadillac (body panels are typically horribly mated with uneven gaps all around the car) and a Lexus. Big difference. You dont notice as much of a difference in the interior though, other than design.

I know this is a generalization, Im sure anyone can come up with an exception to this observation. And I know the difference in quality has shrunk tremendously over the last 10 years. But I still think that Japanese cars are better quality and offer more than American cars do.

**1993-LS-5spd** · 7-31-02, 13:59

SilverLS, I suggest you learn something from the way Scooby posted his opinion: in a calm, reasonable, fair way. This is an argument I can take seriously and really consider. Unfortunately, I dont have enough access to an array of foreign and domestic cars to check into the apparant build quality. The 3-20 year old Corvettes may be built with worse quality or may just be old hard-driven sports cars. The Corolla may not squeak as much because it hasnt been driven like a sports car in the way a corvette has. Or it may just be built better. A fair argument nevertheless.

**Scooby** · 7-31-02, 15:17

That is a good point, 1993-LS-5spd. But I was just using the two as opposite comparison. Probably not a fair comparison.

The biggest differential I have noticed is between a Cadillac and a Lexus. My extended family loves Cadillac and my immediate family loves Lexus, so I have had a lot of exposure to both. The interiors of models made in the last 5 years have very similar quality (although I hate the tiny -wierd- controls they put in Cadillacs). Models olders than 5 years I notice alot more movement/vibration noise in the Cadillacs than the Lexus models. The exterior body fit has a HUGE difference. Many of the Cadillacs panels are mated poorly and I dont think there is an even gap on the entire car. The Lexus on the other hand was nearly perfect..consistent gaps between panels, around doors and hoods, etc..
I dont think it is fair to compare how they felt driving them becsue Cadillac seems to cater to older folks who want a smooth ride even at the cost of precision.
In general the Cadillacs just seemed like much cheaper cars, less attention to detail, quality. And while Cadillacs have good reliability and obviously good longevity, it still does not match Lexus.

As far as a sports car comparison, now that I think about it, there is less evidence of Japanese superiority. I owned a 1993 RX7 and while the car squeaked and rattled less than similiarly aged Corvettes, it still did to a degree that would make you question its quality. The 3rd Gen RX7s were know for having a poor interior.
I cant really think of other cars I have enough experience with to make a comparison.

**1993-LS-5spd** · 7-31-02, 15:29

Scooby, these are the kinds of things I hope to pick from these little discussions, I wouldnt have looked for gaps in the panels before. I've never been in a Corvette, so I cant say too much about the squeaks and whatnot. However, this is something I will keep in mind in the future. I'm just one of those magazine kids who knows specs and whatnot. Realistic opinions about the actual build quality are helpful.

**midnightMX6** · 7-31-02, 17:06

Yeah i really dont think the corolla and corvette are good cars to compare, unless of course the owner of the vette never hit it hard or took a corner faster than 30 (

) Im going out on a limb here buttt.....what is the general price difference between cadilac and lexus's similar cars?

Thank you scooby for bringing civilized debating back to this post......i say silverLS just shouldnt be allowed to post, he goes around every issue and argues with his oppinions...

**SilverLS** · 7-31-02, 21:18

Quote:

Originally posted by 1993-LS-5spd

Concerning the second line I quoted from you about v-8's not measuring up, I'll give you an example, the 2002 corvette z06(up to this point, I have been referring to the LS1 corvette, but now its time to bring out the big dog...the z06, now you know your in trouble) .............
0-60 3.9 seconds
1/4 mile 12.4 sec
mpg 19/28 mpg
lateral g 1.00

http://www.supercars.net/garages/MMO/18v2.html

Holy man, what are you doing.. i asked for a fast 4 dr sedan that can beat a jap companies top car.. I didnt ask if american can make a V-8 sports car with twice the displacement of an import.. i already know they can do that... And when i said i dont think even the V-8's measure up, i think it was quite obvious i was talking about V-8 Sedans!!!

And yes displacement does matter.. Not just to me either, a car with more displacement shouldnt be beat by a car with less displacement, unless the smaller displacment car has a Turbo/Super Charger and or many more mods than the larger displacement vehicle...

**1993-LS-5spd** · 7-31-02, 21:19

Quote:

Originally posted by Scooby
I have not driven in a 5 year olf Z06 (I have driven in a new one) but I have driven in MANY older Corvettes (3-20 yrs old). The two things that stuck out in head were "Wow, this car is fast" and "Wow this car was poorly built, it rattles and squeaks, etc.."

Scooby, I'm not trying to prove you wrong or anything, just bringing some new information to the discussion. Take this quote for what its worth.
"And listen carefully: Do you hear any rattles or squeaks? I didn't think so. Corvettes of the past, including the last generation "C4" series, had a reputation for poor quality control, partly because of the fiberglass body design. But quality control is tight on the new ones, with not a thread or screw out of place."
quoted from http://www.post-gazette.com/business...ls1109bnp2.asp

This quote supports your opinion that the Corvettes of the past felt poorly made, but, at the same time, praises the new C5.

**SilverLS** · 7-31-02, 21:21

Quote:

Originally posted by 1993-LS-5spd

Turbo Viper
100 bhp/liter
0-60 in 2.7 seconds.
Here is an American turbo that no one can touch for $160,000. Some Euro supercars dont even come close and at about twice the price. And dont pull that, "American cars can only go fast in a straight line" crap. Because it'll pull 1.04 lateral g's. I found these specs so disturbing, my stomach started to hurt. All I can think is why, Why........why dont I have $160,000?

http://www.supercars.net/cars/2000@$...m%20800TT.html
sorry about the multiple posts, I keep running across new information. And Im not some big anti-foreign/pro-domestic car guy. Im just an anti-SilverLS guy, thats all.

Yes, that is a fast car.. but youve gotta admit, it shud be running those times without the turbo... if it was 100bhp/L without turbo, damn that would be a fine machine.. of course its more like 50bhp/L without turbo..

**SilverLS** · 7-31-02, 21:31

sry if im arguing my opinion again.. haha.. but how can u say the corolla and the vette arent a fair comparison for build quality.. Clearly the Corvette should be built much better than a corolla.. it should be made a sports car if it is one.. And the corolla is also in a much lower price category than the vette.. I agree with everything scooby said, maybe im to pushy or something with the things ive been saying, but that is one of the points ive been trying to make.. There just hasnt been anyone out there to back me up.. seems to many people come over from the ford probe forum or something..

**1993-LS-5spd** · 7-31-02, 21:36

Quote:

Originally posted by SilverLS

Yes, that is a fast car.. but youve gotta admit, it shud be running those times without the turbo... if it was 100bhp/L without turbo, damn that would be a fine machine.. of course its more like 50bhp/L without turbo..

Ok, I think we have finally reached a conclusion: You think bhp/Liter is an important spec, & I don't.

**SilverLS** · 8-1-02, 6:40

Well sort of.. I like cars that are made good.. and having high hp/L is a result of a good quality racing engine..

**jewbacca** · 8-1-02, 11:01

Let's look at this from an independant perspective...
What could you assume is more refined/efficient.
5L V8 pushing 300hp
or
3L V6 pushing 260hp
or
2L I4 pushing 240hp

These example engines are all naturally aspirated...

No replacement for displacement my ass, its called turbo

**GTSMayhem6** · 8-1-02, 12:18

well silverLS...lets think about this for a second, you say that hp/liter is a sign of a good racing engine? well none of these cars that we are talking about are race cars haha so shut up...hp/liter can be a cool stat to brag about but thats about it, thats not even a big factor in a car.

**Claeren** · 8-1-02, 12:48

I hesitate to get involved but...

The S2000 is an excellently engineered automobile because it has a high redline and 120hp/litre (NA engine to boot).

The S2000 is a poorly engineered automobile because it has no torque and it dies off as soon as it gets up past 140km/h'ish.

The S2000 is an excellently built automobile because it has low gap tolarances and excellent paint work with few rattles a squeeks.

The S2000 is a poorly built automobile because it has a plastic rear window, a numeric dash, and its stereo is notoriously crappy.

I think every automobile can be torn apart or praised - i think that is how a car gets to production and is bought by some consumers but at the same time is dismissed by other consumers who choose something else instead. If Japanese cars were outright better then Domestic cars then everyone would buy japanese cars. If German cars were outright better then Domestic cars everyone would buy German cars. Obviously, since all manufacturers sell some cars, they are meeting somes need in some way over someone else who has different needs - whether the consideration of the consumer is price, reliability, fuel economy, efficiency, power, horse power (notice the difference), space, prestige, etc, etc - they don't car about who makes it, only that it fits their needs. That is the nature of our capitalist society, you are offered a choice of products that you make a sacrific of wealth to attain for a mutual gain...

Claeren.

**Scooby** · 8-1-02, 15:23

Very good point Claeren. So in that sense, I prefer Japanese cars because they better meet my needs.

Quote:

Originally posted by 1993-LS-5spd

Scooby, I'm not trying to prove you wrong or anything, just bringing some new information to the discussion. Take this quote for what its worth.
"And listen carefully: Do you hear any rattles or squeaks? I didn't think so. Corvettes of the past, including the last generation "C4" series, had a reputation for poor quality control, partly because of the fiberglass body design. But quality control is tight on the new ones, with not a thread or screw out of place."
quoted from http://www.post-gazette.com/business...ls1109bnp2.asp

This quote supports your opinion that the Corvettes of the past felt poorly made, but, at the same time, praises the new C5.

Most of the vettes I have driven in were 5yrs old or older. I cant say that any of the newer ones rattled or squeaked. So I dont disagree with that at all. But I have been in C5s that squeaked and rattled. That was primarily the model I was referring to.

7-31-02, 11:35	#91 (permalink)
Scooby Join Date: Sep 2000 Location: Mountain Green, UT, USA Age: 36 iTrader: (1)	Although Silver's argument is weak and based on some misconceptions, he makes some valid points. American vs. Japanese: both the styling and engines are of distinct different design, this was more true in the past. But in the last 10 years we have seen American car manufactures emulate Japanese designs, including adding higher-revving, smaller displacement engines. Reliablility is almost a moot point anymore. Both American AND Japanese cars are typically VERY reliable. Sure Toyota is more reliable than other cars, but only marginally. The only real valid point Silver made has to do with fit and finish of the cars. Here is where you still see a big difference in American vs. Japanese cars. The Corvette Z06 is an awesome car, very well engineered, beautiful, fast, but take a caliper and measure the gap between body panels around the car, measure the deviation. Then go to a Toyota Corolla and do the same. Also drive a Z06 for 5 years and a Corolla for 5 years. The Z06 is going creak and squeak and rattle and the Corolla likely will not. I know this is speculation, I have not driven in a 5 year olf Z06 (I have driven in a new one) but I have driven in MANY older Corvettes (3-20 yrs old). The two things that stuck out in head were "Wow, this car is fast" and "Wow this car was poorly built, it rattles and squeaks, etc.." Do the same comparison to a Cadillac (body panels are typically horribly mated with uneven gaps all around the car) and a Lexus. Big difference. You dont notice as much of a difference in the interior though, other than design. I know this is a generalization, Im sure anyone can come up with an exception to this observation. And I know the difference in quality has shrunk tremendously over the last 10 years. But I still think that Japanese cars are better quality and offer more than American cars do.
	*Scooby* Founder, MX6.com Forums are like a herd of performing elephants with diarrhea -- massive, difficult to redirect, awe-inspiring, entertaining, and a source of mind-boggling amounts of excrement when you least expect it.

7-31-02, 13:59	#92 (permalink)
1993-LS-5spd Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: nowhere to be found iTrader: (0)	SilverLS, I suggest you learn something from the way Scooby posted his opinion: in a calm, reasonable, fair way. This is an argument I can take seriously and really consider. Unfortunately, I dont have enough access to an array of foreign and domestic cars to check into the apparant build quality. The 3-20 year old Corvettes may be built with worse quality or may just be old hard-driven sports cars. The Corolla may not squeak as much because it hasnt been driven like a sports car in the way a corvette has. Or it may just be built better. A fair argument nevertheless.
	"If you are not criticized, you may not be doing much." Donald Rumsfeld

7-31-02, 15:17	#93 (permalink)
Scooby Join Date: Sep 2000 Location: Mountain Green, UT, USA Age: 36 iTrader: (1)	That is a good point, 1993-LS-5spd. But I was just using the two as opposite comparison. Probably not a fair comparison. The biggest differential I have noticed is between a Cadillac and a Lexus. My extended family loves Cadillac and my immediate family loves Lexus, so I have had a lot of exposure to both. The interiors of models made in the last 5 years have very similar quality (although I hate the tiny -wierd- controls they put in Cadillacs). Models olders than 5 years I notice alot more movement/vibration noise in the Cadillacs than the Lexus models. The exterior body fit has a HUGE difference. Many of the Cadillacs panels are mated poorly and I dont think there is an even gap on the entire car. The Lexus on the other hand was nearly perfect..consistent gaps between panels, around doors and hoods, etc.. I dont think it is fair to compare how they felt driving them becsue Cadillac seems to cater to older folks who want a smooth ride even at the cost of precision. In general the Cadillacs just seemed like much cheaper cars, less attention to detail, quality. And while Cadillacs have good reliability and obviously good longevity, it still does not match Lexus. As far as a sports car comparison, now that I think about it, there is less evidence of Japanese superiority. I owned a 1993 RX7 and while the car squeaked and rattled less than similiarly aged Corvettes, it still did to a degree that would make you question its quality. The 3rd Gen RX7s were know for having a poor interior. I cant really think of other cars I have enough experience with to make a comparison.
	*Scooby* Founder, MX6.com Forums are like a herd of performing elephants with diarrhea -- massive, difficult to redirect, awe-inspiring, entertaining, and a source of mind-boggling amounts of excrement when you least expect it.

7-31-02, 15:29	#94 (permalink)
1993-LS-5spd Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: nowhere to be found iTrader: (0)	Scooby, these are the kinds of things I hope to pick from these little discussions, I wouldnt have looked for gaps in the panels before. I've never been in a Corvette, so I cant say too much about the squeaks and whatnot. However, this is something I will keep in mind in the future. I'm just one of those magazine kids who knows specs and whatnot. Realistic opinions about the actual build quality are helpful.
	"If you are not criticized, you may not be doing much." Donald Rumsfeld

7-31-02, 17:06	#95 (permalink)
midnightMX6 Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Umass Amherst, MA, USA Age: 22 iTrader: (0)	Yeah i really dont think the corolla and corvette are good cars to compare, unless of course the owner of the vette never hit it hard or took a corner faster than 30 ( ) Im going out on a limb here buttt.....what is the general price difference between cadilac and lexus's similar cars? Thank you scooby for bringing civilized debating back to this post......i say silverLS just shouldnt be allowed to post, he goes around every issue and argues with his oppinions...
	--Mike-- 93 Ls mtx hunter green- sold. 91 Tsi Awd mtx - Blown motor.....sold. 94 Ls mtx huner green - CAI, High-flow, Catback, system From New England? Click here ---Sign up for MaPoc mailing list and get info on upcoming meets, Click Here

7-31-02, 21:31	#99 (permalink)
SilverLS Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Saskatoon, Canada iTrader: (0)	sry if im arguing my opinion again.. haha.. but how can u say the corolla and the vette arent a fair comparison for build quality.. Clearly the Corvette should be built much better than a corolla.. it should be made a sports car if it is one.. And the corolla is also in a much lower price category than the vette.. I agree with everything scooby said, maybe im to pushy or something with the things ive been saying, but that is one of the points ive been trying to make.. There just hasnt been anyone out there to back me up.. seems to many people come over from the ford probe forum or something..

8-1-02, 6:40	#101 (permalink)
SilverLS Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Saskatoon, Canada iTrader: (0)	Well sort of.. I like cars that are made good.. and having high hp/L is a result of a good quality racing engine..

8-1-02, 11:01	#102 (permalink)
jewbacca Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Calgary, Alberta iTrader: (0)	Let's look at this from an independant perspective... What could you assume is more refined/efficient. 5L V8 pushing 300hp or 3L V6 pushing 260hp or 2L I4 pushing 240hp These example engines are all naturally aspirated... No replacement for displacement my ass, its called turbo
	And I got punched in the balls....by some guy named Cock-Knocker!

8-1-02, 12:18	#103 (permalink)
GTSMayhem6 Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: the ASH mass Age: 22 iTrader: (0)	well silverLS...lets think about this for a second, you say that hp/liter is a sign of a good racing engine? well none of these cars that we are talking about are race cars haha so shut up...hp/liter can be a cool stat to brag about but thats about it, thats not even a big factor in a car.
	Speed is great...until you crash...speed safely.

8-1-02, 12:48	#104 (permalink)
Claeren Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Calgary, Alberta, Canada Age: 28 iTrader: (0)	I hesitate to get involved but... The S2000 is an excellently engineered automobile because it has a high redline and 120hp/litre (NA engine to boot). The S2000 is a poorly engineered automobile because it has no torque and it dies off as soon as it gets up past 140km/h'ish. The S2000 is an excellently built automobile because it has low gap tolarances and excellent paint work with few rattles a squeeks. The S2000 is a poorly built automobile because it has a plastic rear window, a numeric dash, and its stereo is notoriously crappy. I think every automobile can be torn apart or praised - i think that is how a car gets to production and is bought by some consumers but at the same time is dismissed by other consumers who choose something else instead. If Japanese cars were outright better then Domestic cars then everyone would buy japanese cars. If German cars were outright better then Domestic cars everyone would buy German cars. Obviously, since all manufacturers sell some cars, they are meeting somes need in some way over someone else who has different needs - whether the consideration of the consumer is price, reliability, fuel economy, efficiency, power, horse power (notice the difference), space, prestige, etc, etc - they don't car about who makes it, only that it fits their needs. That is the nature of our capitalist society, you are offered a choice of products that you make a sacrific of wealth to attain for a mutual gain... Claeren.
	"I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours." - Historian Stephen Henry Roberts (1901-71).