Forced Induction Anyone?

[NiN^_^NiN]

I think Sik got the MS from the same guys i got mine from well i think so

[Turk]

Originally Posted by NiN^_^NiN

I think Sik got the MS from the same guys i got mine from well i think so

Yerp your right and it was on your advice that I got.Current (5th) probetalk bulk buy from shadome/radar.

I am thinking that I am going to install the Megasquirt while the car is still NA. I will need a new basemap obviously, and still need the IAT and wideband sensors yer. Anything else I should consider? Injector size is easy enough to change. Or is it a waste of tuning twice?.

[NiN^_^NiN]

well if you install it you can use the KLZE base maps and build up a solid map for it before u turbo it would also give u practice aswell

The Shadome MS kit has everything needed for turbo/supercharging already installed for the computer side of thing other side is boost controller etc which your already got

[fredio54]

getting the ms in in NA form is really good idea. practice isnt waste. its practice. you'll have a great time if you approach it well. certainly a lot less of a headache to get it going on a setup that you know works perfectly. rather than a new one that you havent tried before. limit the variables. thats the way to do it.

[Turk]

Update and a half.

I just bought Radars old turbo kit from PearsonMx6. The other guy was taking too long (even though he is a nice guy) and I really need to get this project started while I am on holidays. Once the pipes get here I will start looking at intercoolers and piping again.

Also I found someone right around the corner from me (3 minute drive wooptie woop!!) that has tuned Megasquirt before for a few customers and is supposed to be a top tuner in Sydney. A bit on the pricey side by a couple of bucks but this guy is supposed to be straight forward and not one of the "oh yer now you need to buy this, oh this is broken" blowasses. I dont trust myself tuning, I will pay to get it done professionaly.

Also I found IAT sensor, Fredio will one from a Commodore VT work. 2001 Model GM car with screw in type IAT. Sounds good yer. Only $14 at Holden dealership.

[NiN^_^NiN]

Thats great news Sik and nice luck with finding a tuner around the corner thats very lucky

[fredio54]

like i said before, any iat will work once you calibrate it... is it open air? you want that for speed when you are boosted.

as for tuning

tune it yourself or i'll be forced to call you a [mangina] for the rest of your days.

if you are scared, get on the ms regional boards and find someone in your area, pay them with beer/pizza to help you! "professionally done" can be good, or sloppy. but if you dont do it yourself, and learn the reasons for things, you will never know, and be way worse off when you have to diagnose something funky later. plus if you pro does a marginal tune and the engine blows from detontation at some future point, hes not going to cover it. at least if it dies, you want to have killed it yourself (though there is no need.)

fred.

[Turk]

Call me a [mangina] then man because I everything I have heard about turbocharging the 10:1 ZE is "they blow up because of bad tuning" "realibility is in the tune" "yer it will make good power with a very good tune" "tuning is the most important thing" and I wont risk tuning something my self and have it explode on me, this is my daily driver and I dont mind paying and getting it done properly. This guy is one of the top tuners in Sydney and is the only person I have found that has actually played with Megasquirt before. I found another tuner close which was $40 less per hour but you get what you pay for. I will risk the learning excercise on a project car but not on a daily driver. No amount of convincing will change my mind at this point.

And also I was told that the widebands supplied by AEM and Innovative (in the tuners words) use rubbish cheap bosch sensors and that if I want I can get one to monitor while im driving but he wont be using it to tune the car. He said his sensor alone, minus the reading equipment is worth $800. For less than the price of wideband, I get pro tuning.

I am still finding out if it is open air, been looking around on commodore forums. I think the VL commodore ones are open air so I might ring holden dealership and just ask.

[NiN^_^NiN]

I think it's a better idea for sik to get it tuned cause he has a ZE after that he can play with it later if he wants to try any other lil tweaks

[fredio54]

do as you please.

the people that say reliability = tune and blows up = bad tune are 100% right, but that doesnt mean you arent capable of doing a better job than the monkeys before you.

its quite simple, you use an na map for the na part of the table, and a conservative figure like 10btdc for advance thereafter.

you set the boost cut at the level you want, and go for it.

then you tune the afr with the perfectly accurate bosch/innovate/aem setup which hundreds of thousands have made mega power on and is accurate to 0.1 afr at quite high speed down to 12.5:1 at 100kpa, 15:1 at 0kpa and 10:1 at 150kpa or whatever you plan to boost to. you set the boost cut at the level you want, and go for it.

the way to go about it is to roll through a gear again and again gradually getting higher load happening, and each time stopping at a slightly higher rpm after having fixed the afr error from the previous run.

10btdc is pretty retarded, so running like that under boost will heat things up a lot, you will want to work on getting cruise right between loaded runs

then its just a matter of pulling timing forward gradually till you start to get some knock, and then back it off a few degrees.

at 7psi intercooled on 98ron with 10:1 comp and a superior combustion chamber design, you would have to be a total monkey to screw it up. you could push higher psi into it if you were good...

anyway, as i said at the top :

do as you please.

but one word of solid advice :

dont base what you do and dont do on other peoples comments, mine nins or otherwise, do your own homework, and make intelligent decisions.

in this case, read the documentation about the bosch sensor, old gen or new, and see for yourself that its totally fine and infact good quality and high performance.

if you want to measure to 0.01 afr (why?? just why????) then sure, you need sophisticated gear like the creators of ms have in their lab, but for us tuning, the difference between 10.8:1 and 11.2:1 is so insignificant that you really dont care, and furthermore, you can control afr to that sort of level only with a ms2e setup anyway, AND, the innovate/bosch WILL read more accurately than that anyway...

i just spent a few hours messing around over msn helping a dude out with his ms issues. the root of those issues was that someone else had advised him to set it up in an inferior way, and compounding the issue was that he had followed the build instructions for the other type of setup. from the symptoms i guessed what the issue was, asked a few questions and found out what was wrong. i then convinced him to reconfigure it in the way he should have in the first place. after that and a little bit of fiddling he had it running sweet. totally sweet.

moral of the story, listening to other peoples largely BS advice (this is the internet, most knowledgeable folk DONT hang out here) had screwed him up and left him with a bad setup.

the same could happen to you if you listen to the sort of people that say things like

"bosch/innovate sensors are fantastic and flawless and you should trust them implicitly" (ie, me)

OR

"those sensors are low quality and shouldnt be relied upon to tune a sub 300hp engine"

or anything else.

you need to do it because YOU KNOW its the right thing to do, not because joe blogs said so. even if its me :-p

lol, now go and [fizzle]ing read!!!

fred.

[fredio54]

there was one more thing

the reason for reading/knowing/doing it yourself is this :

if i have the gift of the gab, you will end up believing me even if i'm full of [shizzle].
the smart guy at the end of the bar that knows i'm wrong might try to tell you in a soft way... but you'll believe me... even if i'm wrong.

thats why you need to suss it out for yourself.

do you remember that episode of the simpons? the town is in the hall and has two groups telling them to shut or not shut the local whore house. the crowd keeps swinging their opinions from one side to the other as fast as the people on stage are talking...

same thing.

fred.

[fredio54]

Wideband O2 Sensor Shootout! | FordMuscle Magazine

Wideband Shoot Out - XR-Underground

i couldnt find the spec doc i have read, but its out there...

moral of the story... they are good enough to use. period.

fred.

[Turk]

I believe what people say on the net to a general degree but would never rely on every detail because alot of the time you have 2 or 50 seemingly smart people (or as you said just good talkers) saying opposite things and im supposed to rely on one because he happens to be in my forum. lets say someone like Radar who build these MS's and the base map he provides has worked time and time again for people to build up on, ill trust that to crank my engine over first time.

I have read and read the tuning manual and searched through here and mainly on PT. I am confident that I could road tune my car to the point where it is powerful, smooth delivery. But I just dont want to just do something wrong which I dont realise and after time the engine dies and there I am on the side of the road with no way to get to work or uni and now have to [fizzle] around with putting the DE back in the car on my Uni student budget. I still dont plan on simply giving my money to the guy going and getting lunch and telling him to just call me when it is done. I am going to be there the whole time watching what he is doing and learning as well.

I personally dont doubt the AEM widebands because I have seen nothing to show otherwise doubting there accuracy. He just said that even if I buy it (for $400+) he wont use it to tune. Why pay $400 for something that wont get used. I will just get one later so that if im while im driving and an injector collapses ill know about it before my engine seizes up.

Besides im too busy now trying to find what size intercooler will fit and figuring out how I am going to go about fixing the crack on the rear tube extractors and where Im going to get gaskets for everything and if I should use the stock logs or chop the pipes abit and have them welded to the tubes. Going to fabricator right now to see how much he will charge..

[NiN^_^NiN]

If your saying i have the gift of the gab and don't know what im talking bout id say no lol i don't have the gift of the gab but when i give advice i've always told turk to check PT as they are the guys who are smart and have the knowledge of MS and boosting a ZE.

Also thoese monkey you called them are guys who are top MS guys and have done heaps of conversions but have still wrecked the ZE.

Im sure turk is going to the guy around the corner cause he knows how to tune it and turk doesn't have the time to tune it himself in the timeline he's got set.

id personally rather have it tuned professionally as it's the daily driver then read up and learn MS

I do think it would be good for you to mess around with MS when the cars NA so you have a good base tune for the turbo guy

[Turk]

Nar Nin I think he was just reffering to everyone who looks like they know there stuff on the internet.

I just picked up an IAT sensor from dealership, round the corner from me and I get on trade so couldnt be bothered going to wreckers. Besides brand new parts smell good..........

I felt pretty slack today, I went to a performance shop and stole about 20 minutes of his time asking him questions on my set up, what would be quicker way to do things etc. Im not even taking my car there....