Hla/sla updates/improvements - Mazda MX-6 Forum
 
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post #1 of 8 (permalink) Old 8-26-19, 20:48 Thread Starter
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Hla/sla updates/improvements

I know people have tried the sla route but couldn't find anyone reporting back on long term use, longevity, failures, and it still seems kinda up in the air. Has anyone tried anything with the oil passages for the hla? Good/bad. I know there is a TSB on replacing the rockers with updated ones with larger feed holes drilled. Anyone try drilling out there stock ones or even the restrictor in the block that feeds the head? I'll be running dual valve springs with a port an polished head, new valves and guides. I was hoping to make the hlas last longer or if necessary convert to sla. Hlas are easy to replace but I dont wanna have to do it constantly. Thoughts, ideas, old posts I missed are all welcome.
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post #2 of 8 (permalink) Old 8-27-19, 13:02
 
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I have never had an issue with rocker oil feed holes on any year F2T, I would not recommend drilling them out or the block reducer, this would lower oil pressure in the head and could cause wear to the cam journals.
The rocker oil feed holes are there to lubricate the cam lobes and rockers, if you ever ran the engine with the valve cover off you would notice that they squirt oil but only from one (or two on the intake side) rocker at a time as the rocker pushes down the valve, so either the oil supply holes in rockers and rocker shaft line up when the valve is engaged or the HLA's play a part in delivering oil via the rocker arms. The stream of oil from the rockers is surprising, the oil from the exhaust side will clear the rad support and bumper... It is meant to hit the valve cover and splash over the cam lobes and rocker assemblies.

Only if the cam lobes / rocker contact points show sings of friction wear would anything need to be done about head lubrication.

I have not once heard a success story about converting to solid lifters, everyone who worked on them disappeared without sharing their results.What would need to be looked into is the behavior of the HLA's when the engine is running, do they collapse everytime they open the valve? are they meant to? if so then the total valve travel would be the rockers movement minus the collapsed HLA tip (Say 1/8" hypothetically).
Running solid lash adjusters would cause the valve to travel 1/8" farther than factory HLA's, can the valves and springs handle the extra travel (definitely wouldn't want to try and move the valve farther running the extra resistance of dual valve springs).
Will this extra lift/travel make the block and head an interference engine so the pistons could now hit the valves (check by putting turning the cam until valves are fully opened and turning the crank without a timing belt to see if the pistons touch the valves). I have had the 21mm crank bolt wiggle loose and unscrew itself and the timing pulley slide off the keyway on several F2T's due to the vibrations of running solid motor mounts, even with locktight high temp permanent (red) and the bolt as tight as It can be this has happened, so breaking the timing belt isn't the only way to jump the timing, if the engine was interference this would require an engine rebuild instead of just realigning the timing and tightening the bolt on the side of the road.
You could have the valve reliefs in the pistons machined to clear the extra valve travel but this would lower overall compression and weaken the pistons.

However if the factory HLA's do colapes a small amount some of the time (heavy load, high rpm...) and the valves still clear the pistons, the rockers still squirt oil because of passage alignment and not HLA's then solid lash adjusters could increase lift and duration. But I figure as rpms climb and oil pressure increases the HLA's get stiffer and create more travel than at low rpm and idle.

To be honest I have not heard or read anything that shows:
A) Dual valve springs are necessary at any Hp output or RPM.
B) Dual valve springs make any more power or improve the power band over stock springs.
C) Dual valve springs aren't a constant nuisance to anyone how has tried to run them, causing lots of engine noise and constantly collapsing HLA's.

Based on the fact the 8valve cam they run with has less travel than the F2 cam and the dual valve springs already have more resistance than stock springs it is no surprise they collape HLA's and I can guaranty block power loss from turning the cam gear and flow power loss from reduced valve travel.

The internet can be as bad as it is good, curse the Australian for posting about dual valve springs and bad dyno top ends on stock turbo's with horrible boost controllers and an over taxed wastegate spring.
And then you buy something you don't need, but spent money and want to use it and look at the choices you have to make it work, spending a fortune on replacement HLA's or redesign and perfectly functional head.
You could get a second F2 or F2t car and leave it stock, just put the collapsed HLA's in that engine and let it idle 15 to 20 minutes and recharge the HLA's, then put them back it the build car's engine.

I would recommend stock springs and valve spring shims to increase the stiffness a bit.

-Helicoil the manifold studs
-Port the head
-Weld the transmission diff shaft
-2.5 to 3" exhaust
-Strong clutch
-2.5 inch intercooler pipes
-Proper rated intercooler
-T3 or T3/T4 turbo
-Good wastegate
-New quality engine gaskets
-Proper tuned fuel and timing
-Water/meth injection

Waste of money and counter productive:
-Cam work
-Mustang Throttle body
-aftermarket pistons and rods
-engine bore
-engine 0 deck
-Head shave
-3 angle valve jobs
-2L 16 valve FE3 downgrade


------------------------------------------------------------

Why new valves and guides?

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post #3 of 8 (permalink) Old 8-27-19, 21:52 Thread Starter
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I've never had an issue with oil feed holes of any kind unless the motor in question was extremely sludged up. But I found a post on this sight about a TSB for the hlas making noise due to build up in the passages of the rocker arm feeding the hla. They have revised rocker arms with a slightly larger hole feeding the hlas if I read it correctly. They were enlarged from .047" to .078". There was also a way to distinguish between the two regarding a single hole drilled through on the back arch facing the valve cover. Does anyone have any experience with updated rocker arms? Now theoretically I could drill my stock rockers to said size to increase lubrication to hlas as stated in the TSB with out touching the reservoir in the end or the squirter holes in the top. I've not read anywhere of somone trying this but it sounds like it may help long term.

I've read a couple here say they were going to drill out the restrictor in the block although I dont think is a good idea. Never saw anything regarding how that went but I'm assuming not good.

As far as hla operation in the f2t I cant find 100% rock solid info, just a lot of different assumptions. Based on the fact that liquids dont compress and there is a one way check ball held by a spring I think it's safe to assume to that hlas dont compress under load in good running condition. I'm no engineer or physics major and have been wrong before about things. If that is true though the only way for them to collapse would be if they had an internal leak between the plunger and body or weak spring pressure on checkball causing leak down. Small leaks may not be noticed while driving due to oil flow/pressure and the fact that on following the cam while the valve is closing there is less pressure on the "plunger" causing less seating pressure of check ball allowing oil to potentially enter the hla to keep contact with cam on next revolution. A small leak could cause the tick on start up people always hear as well for the first few minutes. I dont know if the squirters only work when that valve on that rocker is pushed or if they consistently squirt at all times. I've never watched it but I know it happens. If they only squirt upon valve movement it would suggest there is some compression of the hla helping with this. But seeing as there is nothing in the reservoir of the rocker besides an hla, a feed hole, and a squirter/lube hole I'll make another assumption and say they squirt all the time and hlas dont compress unless they need replacement. That's also how you check for a bad hla, does it compress by hand or not? Please correct me if I'm wrong on anything as I've been outta the f2t game for awhile.

Now slas as cool as it would be to have them and I know you convert to them on other cars, I'm just not sure it's worth the headache of the swap just yet. I have enough extra parts to try it out minus an sla cam/grind but will probably save that experiment for after this current motor im building is complete. Even then that head will be ran on an extra motor I have so as not ruin my hard work on the fresh build. It's not new science or anything and I'm sure it can be done with success but that's an entirely different rabbit hole. If someone knew exactly how to make it work it successfully already I'd probably be all over it.

Hlas are cheap to buy, easy to replace, and easily recharged in a cup of oil with out running them in a separate motor to charge them and swap them back, that would be waste of time and energy.

Dual valve springs while never necessary per say do have there place and I think will benefit this motor at higher rpms, boost, hp figures. Could be a double edged sword though. Shims can help for less money but the stock springs in my opinion are junk. Even just the outers of the duals are way stronger and I can see just those being an upgrade over stock. Has anyone ran just the outer springs of the duals? I have seen a picture posted here of somone claiming duals broke there rockers. Didnt say what happened when it broke though. Putting along? Racing? Missed shift? Low oil? Too many shims in their oil pump? Who knows. I will run my duals and If I dont like how they are performing they are easily taken out with head on the car before real tuning begins. No big deal.

Everything you recommended will be done and probably a few extras. Diff cams, pistons, rods, head shave and the like will not touch my motor. Although it will be getting a 3 angle valve job which these motors have stock and I find necessary to any good head job.

I'm replacing valves and guides due to wear/peace of mind. I have an installer/remover and factory heights of guides so there is no guesswork.
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post #4 of 8 (permalink) Old 8-29-19, 18:48
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MazdaMurphy View Post
I've never had an issue with oil feed holes of any kind unless the motor in question was extremely sludged up.
Since 1998 I have worked on, owned and parted at least 100 F2/F2T's 1988-1992 I have scrapped thick sludge out of oil pans, run 20/50 motor oil and w70 lucas motor oil but I have never seen a blocked rocker
passage.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MazdaMurphy View Post
Based on the fact that liquids dont compress and there is a one way check ball held by a spring I think it's safe to assume to that hlas dont compress under load in good running condition. If that is true though the only way for them to collapse would be if they had an internal leak between the plunger and body or weak spring pressure on checkball causing leak down. Small leaks may not be noticed while driving due to oil flow/pressure and the fact that on following the cam while the valve is closing there is less pressure on the "plunger" causing less seating pressure of check ball allowing oil to potentially enter the hla to keep contact with cam on next revolution. A small leak could cause the tick on start up people always hear as well for the first few minutes. I dont know if the squirters only work when that valve on that rocker is pushed or if they consistently squirt at all times. I've never watched it but I know it happens. If they only squirt upon valve movement it would suggest there is some compression of the hla helping with this. But seeing as there is nothing in the reservoir of the rocker besides an hla, a feed hole, and a squirter/lube hole I'll make another assumption and say they squirt all the time and hlas dont compress unless they need replacement. That's also how you check for a bad hla, does it compress by hand or not? Please correct me if I'm wrong on anything as I've been outta the f2t game for awhile.
Not exactly, you check the HLA's by hand for a gap between it and the rocker, if there is free play the HLA has failed. This could be a wording thing, I was using collapse as move, they do move, whack a rocker and you will see the hla springs in a bit and comes back, If they didn't move and the check valve and spring locks them in place then why did mazda use hydraulic lash adjusters in the first place. A simple test would be to take 4 or 12 HLA's and just weld the HLA in the opened position and run the 4 exhaust "Sla's" or all 12 and see how the engine runs.
The rockers only squirt oil when they engage the valve, 1 exhaust,2 intake and so on, I think it has to do with the holes in the rocker arms and rockers lining up.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MazdaMurphy View Post
Hlas are cheap to buy, easy to replace, and easily recharged in a cup of oil with out running them in a separate motor to charge them and swap them back, that would be waste of time and energy.
This is all true except this applies to a factory F2 head, once you "recharge" them in a cup of oil and reinstall them in a single valve spring head they will tap for a minute or two until they actually recharge. With a dual valve spring head they will never stop tapping thus never recharge.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MazdaMurphy View Post
Dual valve springs while never necessary per say do have there place and I think will benefit this motor at higher rpms, boost, hp figures. Could be a double edged sword though. Shims can help for less money but the stock springs in my opinion are junk. Even just the outers of the duals are way stronger and I can see just those being an upgrade over stock. Has anyone ran just the outer springs of the duals? I will run my duals and If I dont like how they are performing they are easily taken out with head on the car before real tuning begins. No big deal.
What RPM's are you aiming for?
What do you base your opinion of the stock spring on? (i'm guessing a cloud formation or star cluster).
The outers are not stronger in this thread I compare specs of B2200 8v springs to those of F2 12v springs. https://www.mx6.com/forums/1g-mx6-ot...-required.html (Dual valve spring technical help required)
Keep in mind this is info for the F2/F2T intake valve spring the exhaust valve spring is slightly longer and stiffer.

"F2/F2T intake valve spring info (for sealed power springs on rock auto) :

Max Outside Diameter 1.31
Wire Diameter 0.17
Total Coils 7.1
Closed Height 1.57
Closed Pressure (Lbs) 58
Open Height 1.17
Open Pressure (Lbs) 157
Type S

The 1992 mx6/626 Factory workshop manual states:

Standard valve spring free length IN- 1.949" EX- 1.984"
Standard setting load/height IN- 45.5-51.5lbs / 1.614" EX- 53.9-60.9lbs / 1.614"

___________________________________________________________________________________________________

B2200 (1991) Sealed power valve springs (intake/exhaust not mentioned):

Outer spring:

Max Outside Diameter 1.417
Wire Diameter 0.156
Total Coils 7.2
Solid Height 1.048
Closed Height 1.45
Closed Pressure (Lbs) 59
Open Height 1.2
Open Pressure (Lbs) 96
Type S

Inner spring:

Max Outside Diameter 0.97
Wire Diameter 0.125
Total Coils 8
Solid Height 1.06
Closed Height 1.35
Closed Pressure (Lbs) 35
Open Height 1.1
Open Pressure (Lbs) 59
Type S

____________________________________________________________________________________________________

Assuming
The solid height would be the spring compressed to it's maximum
Closed height would be on the head with the valve closed (seat pressure)
open height would be with the valve fully opened

How thick are the upper b2200 valve spring seats, the ones that go on top and the keepers sit in.

I find the open closed height of the mx6 spring versus the b2200 outer spring quite different.
mx6- 1.57" closed, 1.17" opened, total travel- 0.40"
B2200- 1.45" closed, 1.2" opened, total travel- 0.25" The inner spring also has 0.25" travel.

MX6 spring pressure closed 58lbs, open 157lbs
B2200 spring pressure closed 94lbs, open 155lbs

Seat pressures:
Sealed power mx6 - 58lbs intake
WSM mx6 - 51.5lbs IN, 60.9lbs EX
Sealed Power b2200 - 94lbs
Mazda Powered Mx6 - 85lbs

The B2200 springs may list the same spring pressure with the valve opened as the Mx6 but that is for 0.25" travel, what is the pressure at 0.40" travel.

This longer travel is why the mx6 spring gains 99lbs over seat pressure when the valve is opened.

It is not easy to calculate accuratly because I don't know if the stiffness increase is linear.
The mx6 spring : 157/ 58 = 2.70689 X seat pressure @ 0.40" or a 270.689 % increase.
If the B2200 springs act the same as the mx6: 94lbs X 2.70689 = 254.44lbs @ 0.40" travel.
If the spring increase is linear: 155 - 94 = 61lbs / 0.25" = 244 X 0.40" = 97.6lbs + 94lbs = 191.6lbs spring pressure with valve opened."
----------------------------------
So at a closed height of 1.57" the F2 intake spring has a pressure of 51.5 - 58 lb
At a closed height of 1.45" the B2200 outer spring has a pressure of 59lb but what is it's pressure with the spring 1/8" farther opened at the F2's 1.57" height. I bet it's less than 51.5lb.



Quote:
Originally Posted by MazdaMurphy View Post
Everything you recommended will be done and probably a few extras. Diff cams, pistons, rods, head shave and the like will not touch my motor. Although it will be getting a 3 angle valve job which these motors have stock and I find necessary to any good head job.
Well the valves have a two angle cut but only one seating face at 45%, A 3 angle valve job won't hurt and should insure proper seating but forced induction motors don't show any power improvements, charge air above atmospheric pressure doesn't behave the same as aspirated air, it doesn't care about shapes and smooth transitions it's all about area and filling it.

Since valve springs are easy to change with the head on the car (stuff rags in the oil return holes of the head to keep the keepers out of the oil pan.

I recommend starting with factory springs and shims then try out the dual valve springs. If you are hell bent on stiffer springs for the F2T why not run 8 exhaust valves springs on the intake side (taller and stiffer) and double the shims on the exhaust side. At least the factory springs are designed to hold the proper height and travel the proper distance.

I have yet to see worn valve guides or valves on a head,next time you need one let me know I have at least 20 good bone stock F2T heads and 6 F2 heads kicking around my shop and more on blocks and in cars...

I wasted time and money on engine work and head work many years ago, I hate to see people make the same or similar mistakes that I did, I have tried adjustable cam gears (have two paid 0$ both are worth 0$), run lightweight under drive pulleys (have2 paid lots worth 50$ each), fidanza aluminum flywheel paid too much (Have 1) worth having the factory flywheel lightened for100$ (have3 love them). Had an engine built 50thou over, swapped the rods, pistons where rated to take 30 psi, 7.6:1 compression.... (cost a lot, ruined a good block), some machine shop idiot took 10thou of a ported head 2times by accident but told me I would get more power this way, all I got was head lift and popping rad caps above 21psi.

To be honest polishing the exhaust ports on a F2T head is a waste of time, after porting the surface is smoothed with sanding cartridges and flap wheel sanding disks, polishing the exhaust to a mirror finish doesn't change the exhaust port carbon build up from the flap wheel fining at all, it does make it easier do clean with degreaser and a rag but who's pulling the exhaust manifold to do that?
Having the combustion chamber sanded is beneficial, it slightly increases combustion chamber size lowering compression ratios and the smooth finish has a lot less carbon build up versus the rough, porous and flawed sand cast finish.

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post #5 of 8 (permalink) Old 9-9-19, 14:36
 
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I went back to stock. Not worth
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post #6 of 8 (permalink) Old 10-20-19, 19:25
 
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I wouldnt say forged pistons are a waste of money if your tune is right😉 i just put the oe spec springs back in and all my noise went away. As mentioned previously determining what the hlas are doing is key. Too time consuming for me to figure out. All i know is i had constant lifter ticking and it was fast but now with original springs in the head i feel as if the rpms rev up smoother. Likely due to the no longer collapsing hlas. Just bit quicker throttle response i think. Did up the boost a couple lbs 8psi to 14psi shortly after though. Thats where the real gains came in lol
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post #7 of 8 (permalink) Old 10-22-19, 22:53
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by juanpac_tupac View Post
I wouldnt say forged pistons are a waste of money if your tune is right😉
I will have to change your words:

Quote:
Originally Posted by juanpac_tupac View Post
I wouldn't say higher compression pistons are a waste of money if your tune is right😉
Forged pistons at factory compression would require no different tune.
Factory N/A pistons at 8.6:1 compression would require a different tune if running them in an F2T.

Here are the un-answerd max power questions:
-Can higher compression forged piston handle more boost than factory 7.8:1 pistons?
-To run higher compression requires more fuel and less timing than lower compression pistons, what are the trade off ratio's ? power lost to reduced timing vs power gained from higher compression.
-What is the boost to compression ratio, is it linear? 8.6:1 N/A pistons are about 10% higher compression (7.8 +.78 = 8.58:1), can they only run 90% of the boost 7.8:1 pistons can before reaching the limits of timing pulling the maximum timing at which point pulling any more won't prevent detonation. Fuel should be easier to research, upgrading to higher octane, water/meth, E85 and finally alcohol race fuel are the basic steps in the quest for max power, how does octane to engine compression work? Is the curve Linear? I am guessing in might not be when it comes to ultra high octane fuel. So if 10% comp increase was equal to 10% less boost before detonation as the octane rates get really high I think the maximum boost allowable might increase, so on E85 and water meth 10% higher comp might require only 5% less boost and alcohol race fuel maybe 2% less.
-8.8:1 pistons are 11.2% higher compression ratio than factory 7.8:1, Does compression ratio have equal % effect on combustion chamber pressure.
[email protected] what combustion chamber pressure do factory F2T pistons crack? @ what pressure do forged 8.8:1 pistons crack?
-Can the maximum combustion pressure a factory piston will handle be achieved before reaching the timing and fueling (tuning) limits? Can 8.8:1 pistons?
---If the factory 7.8:1 pistons reach the physical tuning limits of the F2T without cracking than forged pistons aren't necessary and higher comp pistons will yield less overall power. If not than more power can be made with 8.8:1 forged pistons but even more with 7.8:1 forged pistons and so on.
--------------------------------------------------------------------

Short version: Can we tune the engine to the point factory pistons can't handle combustion chamber pressure if yes, forged 7.8:1 compression pistons are necessary.

If your factory pistons are done and you are having your engine rebuilt and can't find more factory pistons, forged pistons are the only choice, no available aftermarket factory replacement piston will handle any amount of boost. (You refers to everyone).

If you want to keep your F2T powered car bone stock, please park it indoors and stop driving it, take the buss and stop driving all together, one of us F2T modifiers will need the car eventually and buy it from you. This applies to every make and model of car. Be safe and stay off the streets




Quote:
Originally Posted by juanpac_tupac View Post
i just put the oe spec springs back in and all my noise went away. As mentioned previously determining what the hlas are doing is key. Too time consuming for me to figure out. All i know is i had constant lifter ticking and it was fast but now with original springs in the head i feel as if the rpms rev up smoother. Likely due to the no longer collapsing hlas. Just bit quicker throttle response i think.
Could be the combination of delayed valve movement and extra valve train resistance. There would definitely be more engine resistance with stiffer springs, this would be most noticeable at low rpm and at cruise .
Are you running spring shims, new springs or 30year old springs? I am amazed that valve springs survive what they do, metal bound and under load bent over and over again through radical heat cycles for years at an average of 1500 times per minute X minutes driven (Millage/average speed in mph= number of hours X 60 = number of minutes X average head RPM (actual rpm / 2). So 100000 miles at an average speed of 35mph (that would be a high average speed because seconds stopped = minutes at the limit with average speed)= 2857 hours of driving to minutes (x60) = 171428.57 minutes X average rpm (1500) =
257 142 757 compression cycles every 100 000miles + uncounted idle time (minutes warming up, sitting at lights or waiting for someone x 400-500 rpm) and they don't collapse to a lump, they need to build the whole car out of coil spring metal.
I mean they do wear down.

Quote:
Originally Posted by juanpac_tupac View Post
Did up the boost a couple lbs 8psi to 14psi shortly after though. Thats where the real gains came in lol
2 is a couple 3 is a twisted couple and 4 is a head ache but 6 isn't close to a couple unless your Mormon.
I mean glad to hear your running more boost and hope you're enjoying it.

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post #8 of 8 (permalink) Old 10-26-19, 22:51
 
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I didnt up the boost as radically as it sounded this has been a long time process for me lol ive been creeping up and tuning as i go mostly relying on my autotune function with efi analytics. Had a good street tune to start off with. Although backing off some before i break something. I have new oe spec springs that im using. No shims. I just removed my inner springs essentially. I think my spring set up would work out okay if i had solid lifters but thats too much of a hassle right now. I have a machine shop that could cut me some lifters to convert straight to a solid lifter style which im half tempted to do still 😁 not fully giving up on the solid lifters but my money is going elsewhere on the car. Water meth and e85 are next on my list. My ms3x is the best upgrade on this car. Flex fuel sensor for 60 bucks hooks right up. Extra outputs for water meth injection. Cant wait. I know it can be done without the ems but it sure makes it convenient
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