the KLZE Turbo Debate. - Mazda MX-6 Forum
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post #1 of 25 (permalink) Old 11-4-02, 4:53
ItzDaFieroGT
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the KLZE Turbo Debate.

I went searching abroad and found LOTS of posts on yes and no's of doing this. I find it intruiging that people say its a bad idea because of the 10:1 compression ratio on the ZE. If that is the only reason its a bad one. To start the B18C5 runs over 11:1 compression and there are turboed examples of it driving around EVERYWHERE on stock internals. I know of at least 5.

I am going to be swapping in a KLZE/5spd into my Fiero soon and eventually iw as goign to run a small turbo with a water to air intercooler (Hard to do air to air on a mid engine car ) At 7psi through one of the most efficient intercooler forms (over 90%) and proper fueling....i wont have a single problem. Ive been dealing with FOrced inducton a long time and seen engines that are MUCH weaker than the KL V6's with "high compression" that have been running reliabily. The trick to it is controlling detonation. Proper dynotuning and supporting systems can reveal tens of thousands of long lived Turbo miles. If you dont believe me. give me a bit and ill prove it.

BTW. what do you think of my idea
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post #2 of 25 (permalink) Old 11-4-02, 7:49
 
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Well, I've been dealing with turbo engines for a long time now also, and I disagree with you. Why do people run higher compression if the only difference is detonation? Of course, that's not it. They get more horsepower out of it. But, that means more stress on the internals. So, in a KLZE you've got the added stress of the higher compression AND you've got the added stress of ~7 pounds of boost - something that the motor was never designed to take. It's not a desirable situation - wondering if your motor is going to blow up every time you go WOT.

Believe me, high compression is your enemy when running FI. Hondas do it because ALL of our somewhat-reasonably-powered motors have high compression. There's no choice, save thicker head gaskets or new internals. Actually, lots of people use one or the other when running a turbo setup.

As for your idea about running a ZE in a Fiero... I've never heard of anyone doing it, and I can't say if it'll bolt up or not, but it seems pretty unlikely. Good luck with it...

Quote:
Originally Posted by cheerios165
i didn't read it but it sure looks informative, with the graphics and everything.
"Indeed what I have here written makes no claim to novelty in points of detail; and therefore I give no sources, because it is indifferent to me whether what I have thought has already been thought before me by another." - and you get karma if you can spot the irony.
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post #3 of 25 (permalink) Old 11-4-02, 8:01
 
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Actually. i tend to agree with the Fiero guy more than you.

Fact remains you dont get more power form higher compression unless your running the same turbos ont he same ammount of boost. Compression ratio is just found by Cyl pressure in PSI in relation to atmospheric pressure at sea level. If you run 2 motors, one has a cyl pressure of 110psi in each cyl and 20psi of boost, and a motor with 125psi of cyl pressure and 5psi of boost...the compressive stresses on the engines are the same. However the motor with lower compression and more boost will be a bit more thermally efficient. The problem isnt stress but heat. I have been running a turbo on mine at almost 8 psi for the last 6-7 months. and almost 10k miles without a single problem. I keep close watch on my Spark plugs tho.. eyes into the engine.

Oh and i dont think it will bolt in and he probably knows that. But who knows.

1993 MX-3 GS KLZE swap thanks to corksport. Mazda Millenia intake manifold. custom 3" exhaust system. T3 Super 60 turbo suystem. Still in fine tuning. Next step injectors for safety. and ditch the BDFPR for an AFC.
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post #4 of 25 (permalink) Old 11-4-02, 12:28
 
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post #5 of 25 (permalink) Old 11-4-02, 12:43
 
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Re: the KLZE Turbo Debate.

Quote:
Originally posted by ItzDaFieroGT
I find it intruiging that people say its a bad idea because of the 10:1 compression ratio on the ZE. If that is the only reason its a bad one. To start the B18C5 runs over 11:1 compression and there are turboed examples of it driving around EVERYWHERE on stock internals. I know of at least 5.
Well, not all combustion chambers are created equal. One 10:1 design may be on the verge of detonation at 5-psi while another may not show this propensity until 8-psi. It's a far more complex issue than just the static mechanical ratio. Turbulence, squish-areas, ring-land volumes, piston crown shape, ignition timing, valve timing, engine load and so on all play roles.

Quote:
...and proper fueling....i wont have a single problem. Ive been dealing with FOrced inducton a long time and seen engines that are MUCH weaker than the KL V6's with "high compression" that have been running reliabily. The trick to it is controlling detonation.
You're right: it's all about keeping detonation at bay, especially on internal-stock, normally-aspirated-from-the-factory engines like the KL. The higher static compression brings with it a higher propensity to detonate so you have to be just that much more careful when turboing a high-compression engine. Its cast pistons will not tolerate much detonation at 7-psi.

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post #6 of 25 (permalink) Old 11-4-02, 15:31
 
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Quote:
Originally posted by RickBusarow
Hondas do it because ALL of our somewhat-reasonably-powered motors have high compression.
oh no.. he said our... and WASNT referring to mazdas...

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post #7 of 25 (permalink) Old 11-4-02, 20:26
 
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Quote:
Originally posted by MightyMXmini
Actually. i tend to agree with the Fiero guy more than you.

Fact remains you dont get more power form higher compression unless your running the same turbos ont he same ammount of boost. Compression ratio is just found by Cyl pressure in PSI in relation to atmospheric pressure at sea level. If you run 2 motors, one has a cyl pressure of 110psi in each cyl and 20psi of boost, and a motor with 125psi of cyl pressure and 5psi of boost...the compressive stresses on the engines are the same.
That's actually very much like what I said. NORMALLY-ASPIRATED, the higher c/r motor makes more power, with more stress on the internals. Running the same amount of boost from the same turbo (with proper fueling, intercooling, and timing) the higher c/r motor makes more power, with more stress on the internals. Of course, the lower c/r motor can run more boost, making just as much power. That, by the way, is without the added expense of a motor swap or for you guys, the added expense of importing an engine instead of finding a domestic one.

Quote:
Originally posted by MightyMXmini
However the motor with lower compression and more boost will be a bit more thermally efficient.
How is this? The truth is that a lower c/r motor can take a warmer intake charge, because there's less fear of knock. Also, it can be leaned out more, which would result in higher EGTs. A higher c/r motor, in order to avoid knock, requires more fuel for the same amount of oxygen, and will thus lower the EGTs.

Quote:
Originally posted by MightyMXmini
The problem isnt stress but heat.
Uh, no. That's just wrong.
Quote:
Originally posted by Goatcrapp


oh no.. he said our... and WASNT referring to mazdas...
.

Hehe.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cheerios165
i didn't read it but it sure looks informative, with the graphics and everything.
"Indeed what I have here written makes no claim to novelty in points of detail; and therefore I give no sources, because it is indifferent to me whether what I have thought has already been thought before me by another." - and you get karma if you can spot the irony.
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post #8 of 25 (permalink) Old 11-4-02, 21:41
 
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Why would u put a KLZE in a feiro
Why not like a small block or something?
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post #9 of 25 (permalink) Old 11-5-02, 0:07
ItzDaFieroGT
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Quote:
Originally posted by Gregcb53
Why would u put a KLZE in a feiro
Why not like a small block or something?
Well if your ead my entire post i gave reasons for that.

Reason One. I want to do something that Has NOT been done before.

Reason two. I would drop weight and gain power and RPM range as well as reliability.

Reason three. The transmissions avail for the fiero just arent that strong. Common problem with blowing up under too much torque (The trans case itself)

Reason four. Why not

Oh MightMX im from Lincoln. I noticed your in Nebraska too. There IS live out there i guess

Last edited by RickBusarow; 11-5-02 at 7:45.
post #10 of 25 (permalink) Old 11-8-02, 3:05
 
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Quote:
Originally posted by MightyMXmini
If you run 2 motors, one has a cyl pressure of 110psi in each cyl and 20psi of boost, and a motor with 125psi of cyl pressure and 5psi of boost...the compressive stresses on the engines are the same.
I have just got to say that the above quote is completely wrong. 110psi normal compression is a motor that compresses 1 atmosphere (14.7psi absolute) down in size so that the compression reaches 110psi. If you ran 20psi in there (guage presure, so absolute is 34.7psi) and all of it got in, then the compressed pressure would be =34.7/14.7 * 110 = 260psi. Obviously completely different to 130psi. The compression will not actually reach 260psi because not all the air will get in at 20psi, and dynamic compression is different and a heap of other reasons.

If I was to turbo a KL it would be a decompressed ZE. Mainly because the ZE has bigger ports and intake, and better cams.

V6 in a fiero, sounds weird, kinda like what I am doing. A KLZE V6 in a VW Baja. Check the link for more details;
http://www.offroadvw.net/bajawes/linktoV6.htm

How are you doing your trans adaptor? I made my own for my transplant


I can send you the cad drawing of the ZE engine bolt pattern if you want. I also have some of the flywheel and other bits and pieces.

BTW, the KLZE with exhaust back to the Cat, and all accessories (except for air-con) weighs 176kg or 388lbs. I weighed it with a load cell.

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post #11 of 25 (permalink) Old 1-14-03, 4:40
 
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So what would it take to run a turbo in a ZE? I'm in Okinawa, going to try to bring a half cut back using the military to ship it so I don't pay for it (yes!). I'd like to turbo it someday, there was never a final answer. What would it take to properly control the detonation?
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post #12 of 25 (permalink) Old 1-14-03, 8:49
 
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Simply lower boost and/or more fuel, and a super-efficient FMIC. Premium fuel always, obviously, and perhaps even propane, water, or alcohol injection. Basically, turbocharging a KLZE is a waste. It's a motor with high compression - the opposite of what you want.

BTW, if you don't pay for shipping, then it comes out of my tax dollars. Thanks...

Quote:
Originally Posted by cheerios165
i didn't read it but it sure looks informative, with the graphics and everything.
"Indeed what I have here written makes no claim to novelty in points of detail; and therefore I give no sources, because it is indifferent to me whether what I have thought has already been thought before me by another." - and you get karma if you can spot the irony.
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post #13 of 25 (permalink) Old 1-14-03, 11:47
 
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BTW, if you don't pay for shipping, then it comes out of my tax dollars. Thanks...

Trust me, you don't even want to know how your tax money is spent. My using the military to ship a half cut is nothing compared to what I've seen. About a month ago we had to send a flat panel TV on a bird out. It was a $6000 TV, plus it had a custom carrying case to go with it. There were 13 of these TV's purchased so that commanders on Air Wing bases in the Corps could "do presentations". Do the math, it's over $90,000 with the TV's and cases, just for sports or whatever.
The air force took $50,000 worth of cappacinno machines to Afghanistan, along with their OWN white sand. Hello! They were in a desert, yet they brough their own sand! I've seen a small plastic bowl worth no more than $2 cost $500..... Trust me, what I'm doing is very small.
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post #14 of 25 (permalink) Old 1-14-03, 11:54
 
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Oh, I know. It doesn't help, though.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cheerios165
i didn't read it but it sure looks informative, with the graphics and everything.
"Indeed what I have here written makes no claim to novelty in points of detail; and therefore I give no sources, because it is indifferent to me whether what I have thought has already been thought before me by another." - and you get karma if you can spot the irony.
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post #15 of 25 (permalink) Old 1-14-03, 12:34
 
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Re: BTW, if you don't pay for shipping, then it comes out of my tax dollars. Thanks...

Quote:
Originally posted by TheStock
Trust me, you don't even want to know how your tax money is spent. My using the military to ship a half cut is nothing compared to what I've seen. About a month ago we had to send a flat panel TV on a bird out. It was a $6000 TV, plus it had a custom carrying case to go with it. There were 13 of these TV's purchased so that commanders on Air Wing bases in the Corps could "do presentations". Do the math, it's over $90,000 with the TV's and cases, just for sports or whatever.
The air force took $50,000 worth of cappacinno machines to Afghanistan, along with their OWN white sand. Hello! They were in a desert, yet they brough their own sand! I've seen a small plastic bowl worth no more than $2 cost $500..... Trust me, what I'm doing is very small.
You have no idea how bad it is. I work in DC doing IT for the Gov. Wasting money is like wasting toilet paper around here.

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