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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Factory Mazda MX6/626's come with upper rubber coil spring seats.
Some trims or years had lower rubber coil spring seats.

I have many factory mx6/626 rubber coil spring seats but they are all 30-34 years old.
Many parts on these cars stand the test of time and work as well as new 34 years later, these rubber seats are not one of those parts. But I can't thick of any material that would last 30+ years supporting the weight of the car, out in the elements and covered by everything the tires pick up.

I have never bothered to run coil spring seats on any of my F2T's but on my 626GT I want to increase the spring rate and raise the ride height a bit.

After a lot of searching I have given up on finding 626/MX6 coil seats for any generation.

I have been looking at universal coil spring Seats/ Insulators/ Isolators/ and model specific ones from other Makes and models. This has become a daunting task, some of the universal seats have measurements, some are in MM some are Inch fraction and some are Inch decimal.
The model specific coil seats I have looked at don't list the size and finding coil spring inner and outer diameter specs is proving to be a challenge. Eibach and other aftermarket manufactures have the coil length, inner diameter and spring rate in the coil spring part number but I can only find the coil spring kit part numbers and not the actual coil part numbers.

The 626/MX6 factory workshop manual list all the specs of factory coil springs. Wire diameter, coil length, number of coils, upper and lower outer diameters...
I used the thickest wire diameter numbers because they represent the maximum OD and minimum ID.

Front coil spring:
Outer diameter- [ 175.5 MM ] [ 6.91" ] [ 6" 29/32 ]
Inner diameter - [ 146.7 MM ] [ 5.77" ] [ 5" 25/32 ]

Rear coil spring:
-Lower-
Outer diameter- [ 173.1 MM ] [ 6.81" ] [ 6" 13/16 ]
Inner diameter - [ 147.3 MM ] [ 5.79" ] [ 5" 51/64 ]

-Upper-
Outer diameter- [ 129.1 MM ] [ 5.08" ] [ 5" 3/32" ]
Inner diameter - [ 103.3 MM ] [ 4.06" ] [ 4" 1/16" ]

Anyone have any ideas that could give me another starting point?
-Other car brand and model springs you think are close to the F2 coil spring size.
-Any universal coil spring isulator you know of listed by size? Energy suspension lists them by size, Prothane lists by application.
-Any material you can think that I could cut my own out off.
-Any other suggestion...
 

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Factory Mazda MX6/626's come with upper rubber coil spring seats.
Some trims or years had lower rubber coil spring seats.

I have many factory mx6/626 rubber coil spring seats but they are all 30-34 years old.
Many parts on these cars stand the test of time and work as well as new 34 years later, these rubber seats are not one of those parts. But I can't thick of any material that would last 30+ years supporting the weight of the car, out in the elements and covered by everything the tires pick up.

I have never bothered to run coil spring seats on any of my F2T's but on my 626GT I want to increase the spring rate and raise the ride height a bit.

After a lot of searching I have given up on finding 626/MX6 coil seats for any generation.

I have been looking at universal coil spring Seats/ Insulators/ Isolators/ and model specific ones from other Makes and models. This has become a daunting task, some of the universal seats have measurements, some are in MM some are Inch fraction and some are Inch decimal.
The model specific coil seats I have looked at don't list the size and finding coil spring inner and outer diameter specs is proving to be a challenge. Eibach and other aftermarket manufactures have the coil length, inner diameter and spring rate in the coil spring part number but I can only find the coil spring kit part numbers and not the actual coil part numbers.

The 626/MX6 factory workshop manual list all the specs of factory coil springs. Wire diameter, coil length, number of coils, upper and lower outer diameters...
I used the thickest wire diameter numbers because they represent the maximum OD and minimum ID.

Front coil spring:
Outer diameter- [ 175.5 MM ] [ 6.91" ] [ 6" 29/32 ]
Inner diameter - [ 146.7 MM ] [ 5.77" ] [ 5" 25/32 ]

Rear coil spring:
-Lower-
Outer diameter- [ 173.1 MM ] [ 6.81" ] [ 6" 13/16 ]
Inner diameter - [ 147.3 MM ] [ 5.79" ] [ 5" 51/64 ]

-Upper-
Outer diameter- [ 129.1 MM ] [ 5.08" ] [ 5" 3/32" ]
Inner diameter - [ 103.3 MM ] [ 4.06" ] [ 4" 1/16" ]

Anyone have any ideas that could give me another starting point?
-Other car brand and model springs you think are close to the F2 coil spring size.
-Any universal coil spring isulator you know of listed by size? Energy suspension lists them by size, Prothane lists by application.
-Any material you can think that I could cut my own out off.
-Any other suggestion...
Sounds like you have plenty of own templates to use, and you are very skilled. Make plaster casts of your best seats, order the lowest Shore urethane you can find, and make your own indestructible seats. Same basic procedure we have been using to fortify weak engine mounts.
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
Sounds like you have plenty of own templates to use, and you are very skilled. Make plaster casts of your best seats, order the lowest Shore urethane you can find, and make your own indestructible seats. Same basic procedure we have been using to fortify weak engine mounts.
Interesting idea.
None of the old rubber seats would serve as templates, even those I removed from parts cars 18years ago are shot.
They are stretched/fanned out a couple inches larger, the OD is about 9" and the ID is 7", they no longer fit on the strut mounts at all.
I have never worked with liquid urethane, always figured it was like roll on bed liner VS professional spay on bed liner 1/10th the strength. Or like Opened cast molded polyurethane VS Compression molded polyurethane, using extreme high pressure and heat to form the poly results in higher density, better bonding and stronger polyurethane. 2inch X 3foot bar of poly open cast is 100$, the same bar compression molded is 350$. So far I have only worked compression molded poly bars, figured there is less chance of having to do it twice.

Side note: Mounts, we got a few cars over the years with urethane filled mounts, Myself I used pieces F2 exhaust hanger rubbers to stuff in the mounts, that has to be the most durable rubber I have ever seen.

All this being said liquid urethane should still be stronger than the rubber they made the seats out if to begin with.

It wouldn't be to hard to make templates to make isolators like these of the right size:
 

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Interesting idea.
None of the old rubber seats would serve as templates, even those I removed from parts cars 18years ago are shot.
They are stretched/fanned out a couple inches larger, the OD is about 9" and the ID is 7", they no longer fit on the strut mounts at all.
I have never worked with liquid urethane, always figured it was like roll on bed liner VS professional spay on bed liner 1/10th the strength. Or like Opened cast molded polyurethane VS Compression molded polyurethane, using extreme high pressure and heat to form the poly results in higher density, better bonding and stronger polyurethane. 2inch X 3foot bar of poly open cast is 100$, the same bar compression molded is 350$. So far I have only worked compression molded poly bars, figured there is less chance of having to do it twice.

Side note: Mounts, we got a few cars over the years with urethane filled mounts, Myself I used pieces F2 exhaust hanger rubbers to stuff in the mounts, that has to be the most durable rubber I have ever seen.

All this being said liquid urethane should still be stronger than the rubber they made the seats out if to begin with.

It wouldn't be to hard to make templates to make isolators like these of the right size:
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
Interesting that you mention the durometer.
A while back while trying to figure out what to do with the Polyurethane control arm bushings I joined ENG-TIPS.com engineering forum.
The Nolathane poly bushings are Shore A 74 and are softer than Moog rubber replacement bushings.
The engineers on ENG-TIPS seem to think all polyurethane is hard.
PSI Urethanes inc. A manufacturer and fabricator of urethane have a good durometer chart.

SHORE 00:
25 (extra soft) : Has the harness of a Gel shoe insole.
40 (extra soft) : Gel shoe insole.
50 (soft) : Has the harness of a rubber band.

SHORE A:
10-35 (soft) : Has the hardness of a rubber band.
30-60 (medium soft) : Has the harness of a pencil eraser.
60-80 (medium hard) : Has the harness of a tire tread.
80-95 (hard) : Has the harness of a shopping wheel cart.

SHORE D:
50-60 (hard) : Has the harness of a shopping wheel cart.
60-70 (extra hard) : Has the hardness of a hard hat.

I have a 2" by 3 foot bar of 60 A black compression molded polyurethane, I ordered 97A red but there was shipping error I was told they sent 60A black because they always have it in stock, they said they would gladly ship me the correct product I asked how to send the 60A back they said all orders are custom and billed another 360$ us on the credit card.
A Shore 60A poly bar is like a big wet noodle. There isn't a single factory rubber bushing, mount or coil seat as soft as 60A poly. I butchered out two bump stops from this bar to get 12$ value out of 360$ purchase, (too soft to machine) for the front of the 666GT don't ever run bump stops on the F2T but figured even if they are soft like goosh the coil springs bind before the bump stop can hit the strut body.


For the Nolathane control arm bushings I really don't like the fact the center shaft slides freely inside the bushing and has to be greased, because the bushings are softer than Moog rubber I wanted to look into bonding the inner sleeves to the poly bushings. But to the engineers all poly is rock hard and will tear in this situation and I can't get an answer from Nolathane, the engineers or polyurethane manufactures on what bonding agent (adhesive) will hold poly to steel and hold up to the weight of the car, I would say a worst case scenario under heavy braking on bad roads the front end would have 3000lbs on it at most, there are 4 control arm bushings so 3000/4 = 750lbs. So if the adhesive had a bonding grip of 800lbs, there shouldn't be any issues.

The engineers went on about not using poly bushings, the fact that the soft bushing is 1mm longer than the sub-frame was also one of their concerns claiming it would be hard to get proper locking torque on the center shaft, that I should memorize bumps and potholes on the road... and they couldn't move past these points.

Over the years I have done many things to limit control arm travel on these cars, my 89mx6GT has 8 CV-joint nut ground down and crammed into the crossmembers one on each side of the bushings, I used ratchet straps, a chain fall and a sledge hammer to force the control arms into the crossmembers and probably 150 ft-lb torque to tighten the retaining bolts, there is 0 control arm deflection and the up down resistance of the control arm is more than 2 times that of factory. This is the best handling F2T I have ever driven, the added travel resistance of the control arm made car much safer to drive on the road.
Here with the freezing and thawing the roads develop dips, humps and pot holes. So say your driving an F2T and your coming into a long right bend in the road your doing 100mph and the accelerator is on the floor so your can use the engine torque to pull you through the corner. At this point you are completely committed to the corner, lifting off the gas pedal will result in leaving the road, you are now in the apex of the corner doing 120 mph and there is a dip/bump/pothole on the left side of your lane, with no other options you power through it, instead of the front left wheel doing what it's supposed to (go lower or rise up without raising of lowering the cars body) the cars body moves with the wheel resulting in weigh transfer at 120mph in the apex of a corner, the front end "bounce" when turning tends to send the car in the direction of the turn and actions must be taken or the car is going off in the woods.
The butcher mod I did to the control arms on the 89MX6 GT completely eliminated the weight transfer of the vehicle under these conditions making it safe to drive on the road. My goal is to make the 666GT just as safe.

Now before the Moral Majority and their Complacent Consent chime in about rules, laws, speed limits ...
I make these cars faster and as a result in the environment I drive them in the suspension need to operate a certain way, too stiff and the wheels bounce, too soft and there is body role. To me this is like a seat belt or airbags (to some of you), something you hope to never need but should be there anyway. I would rather have suspension that is up to the task of handling the roads and power of the car instead of not, so that when adrenaline does take control my right foot the exhilaration is from driving and not from having to recover the vehicle.

What does all this have to do with coil spring seats. It's because of the Nolathane control arm bushings that I want to add spring seats.
I am running Stagg 2nd gen front struts, the distance between the spindle mounting bolts and coil perch is shorter, this causes the front end to sit lower than it normally would on Eiback Pro springs.
It isn't too low to clear speed bumps or cause issues except:
In the winter, if it was a warm day and it hits 0* C (32*F) in the evening and there is a snow storm, the bottom layer of snow melts and become slush, on rare occasions when driving down small hills (usually with left slow curves in them) and then an intersection at the bottom (where all the water runs down to under the snow) with a left turn the car will drag snow under the crossmembers and oil pan all the way down the hill and half way through the left turn there is so much damp snow packed under the crossmembers and control arms the front wheels no longer touch the ground and the car is stuck in the intersection, it can't be pushed, the snow between the car and ground must be dug out but it is packed under their so tight it's hard like Shore A90 poly and has 2/3 of the cars weight on it. Of the 24" of snow around the car 18" are freezing water... I can feel this happening and will back up to prevent getting stuck but if you are trying to get home during a snow storm they plow the major roadways first and finally the side streets so it is very likely there is a 4foot wall of snow at the end of your street, getting through a 4foot snow bank straight on isn't an issue with enough speed but making a 90* turn and crashing through the snow bank doesn't work, you can leave your car on the street in the winter so you drive around until you can find a path into the side streets and hope to have better luck in the deep snow. This results in hundreds of self important assholes getting stuck and just leaving their vehicle blocking the road and they just walk home. They don't come back and dig it out, they don't call a tow truck they eat, watch tv and go to sleep like it's everyone else's fault and problem. Sometimes the snow plow drivers can pick enough snow with the shovel to move these vehicles out of the way without touching them with the shovel then they plow around the vehicle and bury it in and behind a wall of snow.

All this to say I can raise the front end without messing with the handling or having it sit higher in the front than rear (very bad for launching a front wheel drive).

The Stagg struts have a shorter piston than 1st gen struts, this puts them in their travel range on Eibacks.
My plan is to raise the front end by increasing the length of the lower part of the strut mount, this will increase coil spring pre-load when installed on the strut increasing over all spring rate and increase ride height.

To do this I have cut a set of bearing plates out of 2 auto strut mounts, these are 5mm (0.19685") thick, I will cut the center sleeve off the 5speed GT mounts and weld these to them. This will increase the distance between the strut bearing and coil by 5mm.
I was thinking of using 10mm (0.3937") about 3/8" coil sleeves.
This would be a total of 15mm (0.59") in the front but I expect there to be constant coil seat deflection under the weigh of the car.
And 10mm (0.3937") in the rear.

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I guess with some head ache inducing math and internet searching I could figure out the deflection of different durometer polyurethane under the weight of the car with very little accuracy.
The center of the coil spring circumference is 19.949..." so 20" the coil spring is 1/2" thick so the surface area is 20 X 0.5 = 10 square inches.
The cars weight ? I will use 3000lbs (definitely weighs less).
I will guess that 60% of the cars weight is in the front (probably more).
So 3000 X 0.6 = 1800 lbs on the front struts. divided by 2 = 900lbs per strut/coil assembly.
900 lbs divided by 10 square inches is 90lb per square inch pressure on the coil seats with the car resting.
I have no idea how to calculate the highest possible total load the one strut assembly could be submitted, does the speed of travel increase the impact force when rolling over a distortion in the road or is the suspension load limited to the weight of the car and down pressure force of air ?
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Smooth On simpact doesn't give much information about what it actually is, they call it urethane but label it as Polyurethane Elastomer in the MSDS sheets. I can't tell if it's polyether or polyester or some other kind of polyurethane. They all have very different compression property's.

Have you ever work with the stuff.
Can it be used with a metal mold?
What are its pour, fill, spread and leveling property's?
Was looking at front coil mounts (lower bearing sections) last night and was thinking I could use the mount itself as the inner mold but this would require pouring the urethane mixture down the inner lip of the seal and having it spread out 1/2" wide and 10mm thick.

I have spent hundreds of hours searching, discussing, trouble shooting, researching spring rates, helper springs, adjustable helper springs, self contained air bag helper springs... I learned a lot but I have no experience working with spring rates and all theory and no practice is the first step to failure (2nd step all practice and no theory). Something can work on paper and not work in practical situations.
Wish I would have bought 4 sets of Moog bushings per car (just use the metal sleeved bushings) instead of Nolathane bushings for both cars but 8 sets of Moogs would have cost a fortune. But a lot less time.

Don't buy Nolathane bushings I have not run them yet but installed and grease on the crossmembers the control arm can be moved full travel (up and down) with 1 finger. Whereas with good factory bushing, if you remove the cross member and control arm with the control arm torqued in the position it sits in at ride height a 200 pound man can stand on the center (high point) and not flatten out the the control arm and cross member. If 150 lbs moves the control arm 1 inch from neutral position nolathan bushings lower the "spring rate" of that corners suspension by 150lbs per inch, this can be made up with increased coil spring rate however the higher the spring rate the higher the force between full strut extension and car at rest position so the front ends (in this case) upward bounce is greater, the only thing that resist this travel besides gravity are the control arm bushings. As far as I can tell nolathane bushings remove 300lbs per inch of upward and downward travel resistance. Does this make sense or am I going insane?

And don't say sway bars, have been running (2 sets) adcco 1"F 7/8" rear or probe front 24.5mm and 626lx 20mm bars welded together or what appears to be a factory 22mm front solid sway bar and dual rear 18mm sway bars. 1/2" link kit bolts, reinforced control arms and all poly bushings everywhere.
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
Search results to date:

I Have search poly custom fabricators for industrial washers, Industrial pipe flange gaskets, Poly sheets...
But even standard sizes are custom order and the prices are crazy.

I have found more than 30 manufacturer brands of oem type coil spring insulator.

I have looked at the universal listings of many poly automotive manufacturers.
Whiteline, Energy suspension, Superpro, Prothane ...
Surprisingly Nolathane (the cause the problem to begin with) has something I can cut the size I need for the fronts.

They are 10mm thick 180mm OD and 135mm ID part # 47318

This part isn't sold everywhere and those I have found sell for 30$ US each which is insane.

My budget for coil spring insulators is 50$ US shipping included. 0 income.

Mevotech spring seats list the width, I am guessing it's outside diameter.

MOOG list coil springs by size:
They list : Coil end 1, Coil end 2, Free height, Installed height, Inner diameter, Bar diameter, Spring rate lb/in, Load lb, Spring type.

Coil end: There are 3 Types. 1 Squared = The coil end is bent back to meet the coil before it. The upper part of F2 coils are squared.
2 Tangential = The end of the coil looks like it was cut off mid spring. The lower part of F2 coils are Tangential.
3 Pigtail = The last winding of the coil is smaller than the rest of the coil . Usually used on shock next to coil spring set-ups similar to the horrible Mazda 3 and 6 rear suspension. (Junk).

Unfortunately they don't specify which coil end (1 or 2) is the top of the coil.

Moog part # 9114 has an inner diameter of 4.07" and a squared end. They are listed as front 1986-2000 Lincoln Town Car.

Upper spring seats for these coils are Moog part # K160016 these listed as upper coil seats for many Ford, Lincoln, Mercury years and models as well as Mazda B series trucks.



The measurements are 5.43" OD, 3.80" ID and 0.79" thick.
The rear strut mount cup is 5.406" ID and flat in the center, the rubber seat ID need only clear the bump stop.
 
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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
Today after another 5 frustrating hours of coil seat searching I started another search for factory Mazda coil seats.
Normally the results are, discontinued, not available, expensive price, 55$ shipping and after emailing them it's "out of stock".

The front factory rubber spring seat is part # GJ21-34-012
The front factory clear plastic film that goes between the mount and body part # GJ21-34-013

Rear factory rubber spring seat upper part # GJ21-28-012A
Rear factory rubber spring seat lower part # M001-28-012A (also comes up as M001-28-012B)
Rear factory clear plastic film between mount and body part # GJ21-28-013A
 
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I'm at the Jim Ellis Mazda parts website. I was able to pull up the part numbers and then add them to the cart. Then go to checkout and put in my address. Didn't go as far as credit card.
It is possible the don't have the parts. Some of these sites let you order, then tell you, its discontinued.
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
Thankyou Mike060, that is one of the sites that comes up when I run part number searches, I can't even get a shipping quote to Canada From Jim Ellis website, other Mazda parts dealers in the US charge 3 times the price of one rubber seat to ship it to Canada.
I finally ordered some from Dubai a site called PartSouq, I first found them on Ebay from this seller but not all the seats where available and they claim "ebay wont allow them to do combined shipping on some items", They have lots of inventory listed on their website. 4 front upper seats, 4 rear uppers, 4 rear lowers, 4 rear upper plastics, 8cheap KIA brand shifter bushings and 4 mazda shifter bushings + shipping was $92US.
But of course I had to check the sites reviews and they are questionable, claims of non shipment, lack of products that are listed in stock, partial shipments, 20% restocking fees on out of stock inventory sale cancellations (they cancel the sale)...
And as many satisfied customer
I messaged them to see if the inventory is actually in stock, they said if the site says they are than they are.

When I wrote the part numbers I had already put the parts in a cart and then thought about making the purchase for more than a week searching for an alternative but I couldn't find one source at a reasonable price with reasonable shipping fees.
The shopping cart on this site clears itself after 30minutes.

When I finally decided to pay for the order available quantities had changed, 4 lower rear coil seats where listed in stock originally and the available quantity was now 2, I tried different year 626 and MX6 but the site wouldn't allow me to add more than 2 in the cart. I took this as a good sign and placed the order. Besides I don't need lower spring seats for the MX6GT.

So hopefully I will receive the parts, the prices where reasonable (front upper seat 3.80$ea vs Ellis at 8.80$ea).

------------------------------
My newest quest is to find part # H001-51-782, these are the little clips that hold the MAZDA and 626 or MX6 badges on the trunk, the guy who painted my car sanded them off the trunk and said just glue the Badges on the car. My options are: - Skin a parts car trunk or hatch to remove 7 of them or order 14 so I have enough for the MX6 when it gets painted.



New autoparts.com has them for $1.69 each, for 14 it's $23.66 but the quote for shipping is $35.23 US
I cant see 14 of these weighing much more than a few ounces, I don't get it, I can get a 10cent red brick shipped from china for free, If I have someone in the US ship these to me it will cost a few dollars but like most sites the charge 10X the actual shipping cost to ship stuff to Canada.
Oh I know 35.23$ US may not sound like much to most but here in Canaduh that is 45$ cnd + paypals added exchange rate + customs duties and taxes...
When I am paid by the hour I earn $27 per hour (I can get a 67$ per hour job but they want a full 2080 hours per year), after income tax deductions I get $16 per hour and owe an extra 1.50$ per hour to Quebec at the end of the year, so it takes me 3+ extra hours to earn enough to pay the shipping and if I make an extra 45$ the government gets an extra 37.50$+, they will put that money toward monitoring, controlling and fining the it's citizens. Taxes increase, population increases but the roads stay the same, hospital and school budgets are smaller every year but we get more police cars will all the state of the art equipment available every year.

So I would rather spent 10hours of my time to save 30$ us than to work another minute of slavery for the government, that's why I often salvage, build, re-purpose or trade labor for what I need instead of buying it.
I might sound cheap but the truth is I don't care about money and when a system, a society and a government decides you need it to exist I feel that every minute spent chasing it is one less minute you actually spend living. Too many people, to much greed to many rules... Ignorance must be bliss because only the idiots are happy.
 

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I can only offer solutions for two of the abovementioned problems- excessive snow and taxes- you would certainly be welcome here in Georgia!
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
I can only offer solutions for two of the abovementioned problems- excessive snow and taxes- you would certainly be welcome here in Georgia!
Well those are two of the biggest problems.

My parts search lead me to a dealership in Ontario Canada, they list the Nameplate Clips as in stock and sell them for 1.39$ cnd each, they also list the Lower Shifter Rubber boot seal # GJ25-46-090 at 7.97$ each and they want 24.54$ shipping. Considering the Clips are listed on US Mazda dealership sites for 2.39$ each (sale 1.69$) us this is a much better price (no exchange or paypal gouging). But before I placed the order last night I waited to call the local Mazda Dealership today.
They list them at the same prices 1.39$ each, my account is still active and the order is placed for both items, no shipping fees and at 20% discount.

Life is ironic. Always learning always adding knowledge and information. Before the internet and it's available information and misinformation I would have just called the local dealership first and looked for alternatives after. Perhaps it's believing the internet must offer a lower price or perhaps it's because in the past everything I tried to order was out of stock at the local dealership. Or it's the fact that the more you learn the easier complicated things become, so even though it seems easy it is far from the simplest solution. The problem of overthinking things.
 
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