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Discussion Starter #1
My current plan was, running 4 additional injectors on the back of the intake manifold.
-Running a second fuel pump and completely independent fuel system (filter, lines, rail, regulator...) as well as the stock system on the front of the fuel rail.
-Running water/meth injection ...

Here is a link to the original thread:
http://www.mx6.com/forums/1g-mx6-forced-induction/272961-fuel-injection-set-up-question.html
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Today I was coming up with some designs for variable valve lift without requiring 2 cam lobes per valve. The simplest design I came up with would use a one way check valve at the rocker oil supply and a system similar to a clutch slave and master built into the rocker arm between it and the head. as the rocker moves up and down it pumps the "master" and oil is pumped out a hole in the rocker. The hole is a 2 way solenoid valve.
-with the solenoid valve shut, oil fills the rocker and the master pumps the pressure to the slave (that sits against the valve stem) out as the rocker moves down and the slave back in as the rocker rises thus increasing overall valve travel while allowing the valve to shut completely.

Searching for similar ideas I came across this article:
Near-Term and Long-Term Innovations

This paragraph got me thinking:
"The concept is simple. Start with a DI-turbo engine and add a conventional port-fuel-injection system to it. Then add a second, small fuel tank and fill that one with E85. During modest loads, the engine runs on gasoline and port injection. But when you call for more power and the boost comes up, the DI system injects E85. Not only does E85 have a higher octane rating than gasoline, it also has more cooling effect. This allows safe operation above 20 psi of boost. "

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NEW IDEA (Pretty sure you know where this is going):

-Running a second fuel tank/pump and fuel system, 4 extra injectors on the back of the fuel rail with the Split second injector controller running them.
-Running pure(only) e85 Ethanol in the second fuel tank.
-Under normal driving and low boost the car runs only fuel, above a certain boost the extra injectors add e85 to the engine.
-An on/off toggle switch could control a 2nd boost stage and turns on the pump in the 2nd fuel tank.
-No more water meth injection system.

Is this possible without remapping for e85 Ethonal?
 

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here is my opinion, if you want to run methanol injection, stay away from water mix, or anything water, run 100% denature alcohol, also stay away from overly complicated design. You can run one or 2 nozzle with one pump and get it to come on at diiferent boost level, the will require a Y fitting and 2 solenoid and 2 boost switch. Im running 2 nozzle on my red probe, cause i maxed out my injectors (880cc)

also e85 in a seperate tank is too dangerious and i wont want to be injection raw fuel in , its dangerious, and e85 required more fuel
 

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Back in the days of Champ Car they used an extra injector before the turbocharger. Not sure how well it would work on a street car but it helped cool the intake charge as the fuel atomized against the hot turbocharger...and of course extra fuel too..
 

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Discussion Starter #6
Back in the days of Champ Car they used an extra injector before the turbocharger. Not sure how well it would work on a street car but it helped cool the intake charge as the fuel atomized against the hot turbocharger...and of course extra fuel too..
I have seen many run water or water/meth before the turbo, using it to atomize the injection, the problem with that is the liquid erodes the aluminum turbo blades. I have also seen a few set-ups with the jets installed in the compressor housing. Most of these set-ups don't run intercoolers.
Running pre-turbo or into the comp housing limits the set-up to running a recirculating valve unless you want to vent flammable gasses into a hot engine bay.

On my 626 I run water/meth jets right after the turbo (and BOV) to take some heat out of the air before it enters the intercooler, they are misting nozzles but I figure anything that doesn't atomize will get trapped and dried in the intercooler. The second set of jets are at the throttle body just before the extra injectors. I am surprised and impressed with the effects of 51% Methanol 49% Water injection has at cooling intake air and suppressing knock managing 30 psi boost on a Zombie chip.

For my 89Mx6GT set-up in question I am kinda on a fence, fueling and engine management is undecided.
After running an extensive search for gas stations that sell E85 in the nearby provinces I decided it's very impracticable.
What I do know is the set-up has an HKS BOV and an HKS BPV, the BOV will run before the intercooler and the BPV after the intercooler, they will be switched using a pneumatic toggle, the bypass valve is for better gas millage (if running the factory AFM), better track times and stealth running, the BOV is to annoy people. The planned water/meth set up has 1jet after the BOV and before the bypass valve, so some recirculated water meth would get passed back through the turbo.
I will run water/methanol injection. I am debating between running the split second injection system and stock ecu or just going stand alone.
I really like the idea of running a second tank, pump and injectors. 94 octane is only available at two brands of gas station and isn't available in every province, having a second tank of 94 is a good idea.
My concerns are running anything less then 94 octane in the primary tank would mess with A/F's and knock suppression on the stock ECU and running E85 in the second tank on factory timing advance may be to rich.

So either:
2 fuel tanks 8injectors 94octane in both, water/meth, stock ecu and timing control.
2 Tanks 8 injectors, 91 + 94 octane, water/meth, stand alone.

But as long as the 1989 mx6 GT is faster then the 88 626GT I will be happy.
 

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This kind of thing has been done before, but we're talking about mid-late 90s stuff and adding a bunch more failure points.

Seems simpler and easier and more reliable to me to just bring the engine controls into the 21st century with a decent ecu and appropriately sized injectors? Is there something you're trying to accomplish that makes that not possible?
 

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Discussion Starter #8
This kind of thing has been done before, but we're talking about mid-late 90s stuff and adding a bunch more failure points.

Seems simpler and easier and more reliable to me to just bring the engine controls into the 21st century with a decent ecu and appropriately sized injectors? Is there something you're trying to accomplish that makes that not possible?
Hence the fact I am undecided.
I definitely want a second 15 gallon tank, my average on both (the 89mx6 and 88626) is 15 miles to the gallon, so 225miles per tank.
I could run only 4 injectors and have the rear tank fill the main tank only but I would be then fated to running only 94octane still, people can't stop f#*&ing and making more in the way people so I cant floor it as often (Too much traffic).
I would like to be able to run 91 on one rail and 94 on the other, some stand alone's can run 8 injectors on a 4cylinder, everything is possible and opened right now.
Also there is the possibility with stand alone to run 4 factory N/A injectors on one tank and run 87octane, then run 4 large injectors on 94 octane and set it so that as the boost rises the 87 octane injectors turn down and the 94octane injectors add fuel to compensate.

My concern with stand alone was that I would get the same answer from everyone around here installing or running stand alone. "How does it start in the winter at -25celcius and colder (0 Fahrenheit)" -"Forget about trying to start it" .
After all the research and crap I learned about standalone (forgot most already, but wrote a lot down) there are many ways and add ons to set-up for cold weather starts.
The problem being I would install standalone in spring/summer/fall and have no idea what the set up will do on a freezing winter morning when leaving for work. I also have concerns with what will happen with the tuning in that weather some standalone can compensate for 100degree fahrenheit air temp difference and some cannot, same for extreme elevations some not, a good example is the number of professionally tuned engines that die in elevation during the pikes peke race/trials and they where tuned for elevation.
Concealer I have nothing but respect for you but I am drinking and smoking and I am going to have to start a rant, or I could ... no rant it is:

I will run standalone at some point, but newer isn't always better, like the F2T A and B spec cooling fan sensor set up, the A spec set up fails to On (no connection, no sensor signal = Fan on all the time, eventually you will notice and fix it), the B spec set-up fails to off, (Broken wire, shattered brittle connector, failed sensor = Overheat in traffic and realize the fans not coming on). Yes okay I will agree B brings it to your attention much quicker then the old set up but I'm not in a hurry officer I just like to drive fast.
Think of OBD1 and OBD2, 1 in the F2T's case is safer then OBD2 would have been, infact I would wager that had the F2T been OBD2 there wouldn't be many around. OBD1 has many fuel and timing maps written in, OBD2 has just a few it adapts fuel and timing withing set parameters using sensors (more efficient and much easier to tune) but what happens when one of those sensors fails, O2 sensor check engine light, week timing and rich all the time, now what happens when you boost 23psi (+30+lb/air min) over factory spec. OBD1 same scenario, you run rich to 3000rpm but run perfectly fine under heavy load, boost and high rpm.
From carbs, to obd1 to obd2 there has always been a trade of durability to efficiency.
When my giant yellow check engine light comes on like all Aspec F2T drivers it's annoys me and I want to fix it right away, at least 30% of all obd2 cars I have been in have the engine block icon on or the service engine soon lit up and the owners just say "that's always on" maybe they think the engine icon means it's running?
21st century my ass, pride and craftsmanship is a all but gone and quality is a thing of the past, they use the maximum amount of technology to use the minimum amount of material and they cut corners everywhere, the older steel girder building will outlast any full concrete building made later in history "A He steel rusts, concrete doesn't" "What happens to concrete over time" "Dah concrete dries for many years getting harder and harder and stronger" "what happens when it's completely dry" "Bssspit's indestrubable" "Okay how much do we save" .
All this knowledge and technology but they all just chase code (regulations and standards set years ago) you and I might try really hard to build the bests, I don't know about you but I am not going to build my own sensors and any company that does tries really hard to minimize cost and maximize profit and has learned that durability is the enemy of repeat sales, money is the bottom line.
Have a look at the machinery tool sales in north america over the last 15years, these tools represent the fabrication of everything in manufacturing, there are many things we use everyday that are no longer manufactured in north america, the companies blame China, but china didn't buy the companies, they just build shit cheaper with less stringent pollution laws. Why does china build all north americas shit, because we hired them to, if the corporations really cared they would pay to filter the pollution properly. What happens one generation down the road, we have no factories, no equipment, no skill-set, no clue and China refuses to build North-American crap offering only a slightly lower grade knock off at the price we use to pay for quality crap years ago.
It's all being sold including our time, the only thing you have in life is time and they steal it from us and sell it away every day, what you do for you is 1000X more valuable then what you have to do.

End rant.

All this to say, some of the fail points I have been running for many years are more reliable then the new sensors I will be running on stand alone.

On a side I have the patience, skill and time to map the car out perfectly on standalone and once I have will share and help convert all data, and if your car is as fast as mine then thank (who ever applies) another F2T driver is kicking ass and embarrassing fast expensive cars.
 

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Whoof. Ok bear with me.
 

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Hence the fact I am undecided.
I definitely want a second 15 gallon tank, my average on both (the 89mx6 and 88626) is 15 miles to the gallon, so 225miles per tank.
I could run only 4 injectors and have the rear tank fill the main tank only but I would be then fated to running only 94octane still, people can't stop f#*&ing and making more in the way people so I cant floor it as often (Too much traffic).
I would like to be able to run 91 on one rail and 94 on the other, some stand alone's can run 8 injectors on a 4cylinder, everything is possible and opened right now.
Also there is the possibility with stand alone to run 4 factory N/A injectors on one tank and run 87octane, then run 4 large injectors on 94 octane and set it so that as the boost rises the 87 octane injectors turn down and the 94octane injectors add fuel to compensate.
Why? On many levels.

1) Why is your gas mileage so bad?
2) Why do you need to run two different fuels? I can understand if you wanted to run E85 and say... 93, but that's already sorted with Flex Fuel, which any standalone worth a damn will do.
3) Why would you run 8 injectors if you used a standalone?
 

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My concern with stand alone was that I would get the same answer from everyone around here installing or running stand alone. "How does it start in the winter at -25celcius and colder (0 Fahrenheit)" -"Forget about trying to start it" .
After all the research and crap I learned about standalone (forgot most already, but wrote a lot down) there are many ways and add ons to set-up for cold weather starts.
The problem being I would install standalone in spring/summer/fall and have no idea what the set up will do on a freezing winter morning when leaving for work. I also have concerns with what will happen with the tuning in that weather some standalone can compensate for 100degree fahrenheit air temp difference and some cannot, same for extreme elevations some not, a good example is the number of professionally tuned engines that die in elevation during the pikes peke race/trials and they where tuned for elevation.
Concealer I have nothing but respect for you but I am drinking and smoking and I am going to have to start a rant, or I could ... no rant it is:
That's all part of tuning. Any standalone worth a damn can be made to perform in all scenarios you mention, but in the end, it's dependent on whether or not the person behind the keyboard is capable of it.

Our old MSM worked fine across a 13,000' elevation change and 100 degree temperature swing with a half-assed 2 hours spent on tuning. The biggest thing i had to do was add 5-10% of fuel across the board about when we crossed the 8000' mark, and take it back out on the way down. If i had set up a secondary map sensor for baro correction, that wouldn't have been necessary, ASSuming i had taken the time to fine-tune the correction table.

This isn't 2003, we aren't messing with MS1. ;)
 

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I will run standalone at some point, but newer isn't always better, like the F2T A and B spec cooling fan sensor set up, the A spec set up fails to On (no connection, no sensor signal = Fan on all the time, eventually you will notice and fix it), the B spec set-up fails to off, (Broken wire, shattered brittle connector, failed sensor = Overheat in traffic and realize the fans not coming on). Yes okay I will agree B brings it to your attention much quicker then the old set up but I'm not in a hurry officer I just like to drive fast.
Think of OBD1 and OBD2, 1 in the F2T's case is safer then OBD2 would have been, infact I would wager that had the F2T been OBD2 there wouldn't be many around. OBD1 has many fuel and timing maps written in, OBD2 has just a few it adapts fuel and timing withing set parameters using sensors (more efficient and much easier to tune) but what happens when one of those sensors fails, O2 sensor check engine light, week timing and rich all the time, now what happens when you boost 23psi (+30+lb/air min) over factory spec. OBD1 same scenario, you run rich to 3000rpm but run perfectly fine under heavy load, boost and high rpm.
From carbs, to obd1 to obd2 there has always been a trade of durability to efficiency.
When my giant yellow check engine light comes on like all Aspec F2T drivers it's annoys me and I want to fix it right away, at least 30% of all obd2 cars I have been in have the engine block icon on or the service engine soon lit up and the owners just say "that's always on" maybe they think the engine icon means it's running?
OBD2 is a double edged sword. I personally prefer it, because it's easy to pull codes, and practically tells you how to fix whatever triggered it. Sure, it doesn't allow us to do ill-advised stone age bandaids and be rewarded it for it, but to say that OBD2 "has just a few fuel and timing maps written in" is pretty inaccurate. It actually has none. Neither does OBD1. "OBD" is a self-checking/diagnostic protocol only. It doesn't have anything to do with maps at all. The maps in your F2T ecu wouldn't make up 1% of the maps in a current "simple" car like the ND MX-5, for example. But that's what helps us "get away" with doing the stupid things that we do: tons of grey area, at the expense of accuracy and efficiency. (both MPG and power.)

Your failed o2 scenario is actually a point for OBD2 in my opinion. The only reason the F2T ecu runs the same at WOT even if you have NO o2 sensor at all (as i drove my car for 3 years) is because it's an incredibly stupid ecu that spends an inordinate amount of time in Open Loop. Again, great for minimum effort power, terrible for anything else.

Speaking of minimum effort... i'm down with it. I'm all about it with these cars. I ditched my car because i didn't feel it was worth the effort to do it the way it needed to be done and hold together. But what you're talking about doing in the original post in this thread is farrrrrr more effort and complication trying to work around a stone age ecu that will never perform the way you want, and it'll only get worse the more of this crazy stuff you add, unless your bar is set at "does it run, does it make a bunch of boost."

I can't speak to other owners, but i've only had... 4(?) OBD2 cars. Technically 5, but it had a Haltech and therefor non-functional OBD port. Make that 6, but the 6th is running a JDM ecu without OBD capability. The other ones... a CEL meant fixing it quickly because just because it's OBD2 doesn't make it any less annoying, and diagnosing it is way easier. Stick a box on it, read the code, slap on whatever part it says failed, carry on with your life.

Again... OBD is irrelevant though. It won't function the way you describe with a standalone anyways.
 

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All this to say, some of the fail points I have been running for many years are more reliable then the new sensors I will be running on stand alone.

On a side I have the patience, skill and time to map the car out perfectly on standalone and once I have will share and help convert all data, and if your car is as fast as mine then thank (who ever applies) another F2T driver is kicking ass and embarrassing fast expensive cars.
It's easy to find good reliable sensors, and the cool thing about a standalone is that you can use pretty much whatever you want. I've never had a premature failure of any of the AEM or Haltech branded sensors that i've used. The Megasquirt setups typically use OEM sensors, whether they're on the car originally, or stuff you're using to move away from it (GM 3bar map sensor, GM IAT sensor) that are high quality and designed by OEMs to last a loooooooonnnnnggggggggggggg time.

I don't know if my car is (was) as fast as yours. I do know that it trapped 118mph in the quarter mile while pretty messed up, and returned over 40mpg highway for the last 3 years i drove it. I was aiming for 130mph trap in the quarter, and it had the capability to do so.

I hope you, or if not you, someone else keeps the dream alive of bringing these cars kicking and screaming into modern days. The potential is there, but it's going to cost some money and take some time. Me? I burned out.

RIP, pour one out for a dead homie, etc

The Mighty "Boom Hole." by concealer404, on Flickr
 

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One of the things the Indycar guys used to do ( Back in the Champcar days ) was add an injector before the turbo. The fuel mist helped cool the intake charge while adding extra fuel.
 

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Discussion Starter #15
One of the things the Indycar guys used to do ( Back in the Champcar days ) was add an injector before the turbo. The fuel mist helped cool the intake charge while adding extra fuel.
The low budget water/meth users did the same thing when using a windshield wiper pump, they inject the water/methanol before the turbo so the pump doesn't have to overcome boost pressure in the system and the turbo compressor helps atomize the injection. The problem is this causes erosion on the compressor blades over time .

For cooling purposes it's best to inject water meth after the turbo and before the intercooler, this allows the alcohol to cool the compressed air as it leaves the turbo, helping reduce heat soak on the intercooler and the turbulence in the intercooler helps atomize the injection and reduces the chances of any liquid/puddling from traveling to the throttle body.

I have scrapped any plans to run E85 on any of my cars, their is only one gas station that sells it within a 500km radius of where I live.

For the OBD comments concealer posted.
Let me specify and clarify what I meant.
There where PROM/EPROM- Program read only memory ECU.
Now they all use Flash ECU reprogramming.
OBD is the On board diagnostic system.
In 1990 GM used the first ecu with flash programming because they knew OBD2 was coming and they needed ECU's (pcm's) that were faster, more capable and able to be programmed electronically.

*There is a window of OBD2 cars that ran Prom/Eprom ECU's but I ignore them.
I have never heard of a Flash program ECU running OBD1.

When I say OBD1 I mean Program read only memory and the sensors associated with that type of ECU, when I say OBD2 I mean Flash programmable ECU's and all the sensors they use (all made possible because of OBD2 or all made for OBD2).

Aside from * they go hand in hand so I use OBD system type to specify ECU and sensor type.

So any engine ECU system you can interface with and reprogram runs or is designed for (and because of) OBD2 diagnostic ports.
And any ECU that runs PROM /Eprom and EEprom chips (except* but they don't count) is OBD1.

The reason I wanted to run a second fuel tank with 94octane and a primary fuel system with 87 octane fuel is because of the factory ECU and the fact my cars are Aspec, factory tuned for 87 octane. Due to the nature of higher octane fuel burning slower, cooler and containing less energy than lower octane fuels, causes a car set-up for lower octane fuel to burn more high octane fuel than it would low octane fuel trying to match the narrow bands voltage output even though the knock suppression of the higher octane fuel means it would require less/ could run leaner A/F's without detonation.
So by running 94octane in an Aspec F2T my gas millage is lower than it would be running 87octane, if I had a B-spec F2T set-up to run 91octane than my gas millage would be better even on 94 octane but the detonation suppression window would be lower at 3 octane points over factory tune verses 7 octane points over factory tune.

The solution to this problem was to run an EFIE electronic fuel injector enhancer, this simply adds a small amount of voltage (controlled by a potentiometer/variable rate resistor) to the O2 sensor signal going to the ECU. This allows me to adjust air fuel ratios at idle and cruise at the turn of a dial without the ECU knowing it's happening. Because the F2T runs opened loop fuel maps above 3000rpm the EFIE is perfect for the F2T, allowing full A/F control from idle to 3000rpm without affecting boost/wot/high rpm factory fuel delivery. Because my extra injector controller is set to start at 15psi and I can adjust the gain I have full dial controlled A/F's ratio's above 3000rpm.
From idle to 3000 rpm I have control over the factory fuel system and air fuel ratios, above 3000rpm the factory fuel system runs factory and from 3000rpm to redline I have full control over A/F ratios through the extra injector controller.
And with the MSD Boost timing master I have control over timing from 20 to 30psi, from 0 to 15degrees retard.

One of the reasons I haven't moved to standalone engine management is because of where I live, Quebec Canada or IN THE BLEAK MIDWINTER, why anyone would want to live here is beyond me but this is where I was born and I firmly believe you die where you where born, there should be no migration, immigration or moving to another city.
Here I have yet to meet anyone who has successfully manage to tune standalone engine management to perform properly from -22* to 104* farenheit, those that tune their own cars tuned them in spring and summer and just don't drive them in the winter, those that have shops tune their cars have them tuned in spring or summer and they either won't start in the winter or blow the engine.
Personally I want to drive my modified cars all year long because life is too short and since most of the year is miserably cold and snowing I have stuck with front wheel drive. All wheel drive would be better in the winter but requires hundreds more horsepower to make up for drivetrain loss and extra weight. The exception being the Nissan GTR, many rich yuppies around here drive their leased GTRs in the winter and because it goes from all wheel drive to 2wd it is good all year long, the problem is the cost, every year they make the car a bit faster and with the nismo version being over 100 000$ you would want to buy the newest, top end version of the car (hoping it doesn't get outdone the following year) and immediately void the warranty by modifying it to be faster than any other GTR around while hoping not to blow the engine while learning it's limits...
Keeping anything factory isn't an option, because if someone else can buy the same car and be just as fast then youu've got nothing. Unless only one example of that car was ever built than it needs to be modified.
 

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One of the things the Indycar guys used to do ( Back in the Champcar days ) was add an injector before the turbo. The fuel mist helped cool the intake charge while adding extra fuel.
FFS superchargers for Miata still does this... They run an additional injector in the intake - it appears to work fairly well, apparently doubly so if you're running on ethanol. Tom, the guy who owns FFS, has dynoed a 312 hp 1.8 Miata without even using an intercooler....
 
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