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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
FlySwat said:
Dual stage thermostats help on cold starts by allowing the engine to warm up more before it gets full coolant flow. I believe that would help the people in the north east states and canada a lot.

I had an aftermarket single stage t-stat in my car, one day it decided to stop working. That $5 dollar part cost me a $200 head, plus another $100 in gaskets.

$300, or $17? Guess what I did the second time.
You must of got a freek T-stat Fly...because every T-stat aftermarket or not is souposed to stick open when they fail (I had a single stage last time too and when it faild it stuck open, the only problem that happened is that I couldn't get the car to warm up in the winter.

methman
 

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Discussion Starter · #2 · (Edited)
Re: horsefluff, misinformation and thermodynamics

SleepCounter said:
No "cracks from spark plug to exhaust valve" like FlySwat?
End Quote

{Probley not}

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No "cracks from spark plug to exhaust valve" like FlySwat?
End Quote

{ Probley not}

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If that ain't a testimonial, I dunno what is!
End Quote

{his car could need a headgasket for a different reason like too much boost}


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Do a search on "head gasket" and then tell us that these things never seem to die. Or ask Illswyn.

{certanly not because of thermostats of any kind, do a search on "head Gaskets" and you will find it was because of too much boost}
End Quote

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No "cracks from spark plug to exhaust valve" like FlySwat?
End Quote

{probley not}

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How's your head gasket?
End Quote

{just fine}


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Wrong.
End Quote

{mabey,but I still say a single stage will work just fine}


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After I pooched a bridge-ported 12A rotary (using a single-stage aftermarket thermostat rather than the 2-stage Mazda part), I consulted with Mazda Motors Canada (Warren Wheeler -- Manager of Warranty Claims).
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{isn't it possible that if you had bought a 2-stage that could stick closed too? I think so.}

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By the way, this was not a warranty issue, it was a race car engine, so Mazda and Warren Wheeler had no stake in the issue. He had provided me with much, much valuable information on rotaries before and since.
End Quote

{great Im glad for you}

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The Mazda (2 rotor) rotary, for those of you unfamiliar with it, is sorta like a club sandwich -- the "bread" is end housings and intermediate housing made of cast iron and the "filling" is rotor housings made of aluminum.

Aluminum and cast iron have different co-efficients of thermal expansion (aluminum expands much more when heated) and have different rates of thermal conductivity (aluminum conducts heat much better than cast iron).
End Quote

{I thought we were talking about the MX-6 GT not the rx-7}

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The 2-stage thermostat releases a smaller amount of coolant earlier and allows a more gradual normalization to operating temperatures and operating dimensions. A single-stage creates a more abrupt flow of coolant, engendering thermal shock and dimensional differences (cooling/shrinking rotor housings) which change the tension on the through bolts (analgous to head bolts on a piston engine) which changes the pressure on the rotor housing O-rings (analogous to head gasket on a piston engine).
End Quote

{again your talking rotory, and I want some proff that this would happen on the MX-6}

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Result: Coolant leaks into combustion chambers.
End Quote

{again Proff, and Im lost are you back to talking about the MX-6 again or are you still on the rotory engine Because they're two tottaly different engines}

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I built another 8 or so rotaries after that, (each time using the outrageously priced Mazda 2-stage thermostat) and they all survived, performed and prospered.

Coincidence? I think not. I'm kinda glad I invested in a 2-stage thermostat. Like FlySwat (& magik8), I think it's cheap insurance.
End Quote

{again your talking about the Rx-7 a tottaly different engine, the rotory could react way differently with a single stage than a normal engine, and also again even if it was a 2-stage it still could of stuck closed}

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Now, does this parable have anything at all to do with our (cast iron block/aluminum head) F2 engine? Do the head gasket failures encountered by many, MANY users around here have anything to do with their saving a nickel on aftermarket thermostats? Does Methman know more about metallurgy and thermodynamics than the Mazda R&D engineers?
End Quote

{probley not. no, its probly due to boost or using a cheap headgasket}

And am I part of the "2-stage bull" conspiracy to suck naîve F2/F2T owners into wasting money on a Mazda part?

{yes...yes you are}

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Is Methman more clever (and thrifty) than FlySwat? Does he really need a copper head gasket? Or is that just a big scam, too? For myself, I plan to make my head gasket out of an old corn flakes box -- why waste $$$ on an "outrageous" OEM rip-off?
End Quote

{where did this come from...I never said I was more clever than flyswat but you seem to think your more clever than everyone on this board. He probley does really need a copper head Gasket because when we start cranking the boost our head gaskets can blow fairly easy, "Quote": I said because of BOOST, not because of a T-stat. And Just for FYI I have a copper headgasket
Again like I said IN the PM I sent you Comparing a single stage T-stat to a 2-stage T-stat is way different then compearing, Making a headgasket out of an corn flakes box or going with the OEM. Why Because a corn flake box will not work for a headgasket therefor you must use the OEM, (bad compearsion sleepcounter)however a single stage WILL work instead of a 2-stage.
Now for you to of been part of this thread all you had to do was post, "I put a single stage T-stat in my 12A before and it runied it, however this is a rotory engine so it may differ from the Mx-6"
Instead you went on and posted a bunch of crap that was not needed to determin an outcome of this topic. So Im going to politly ask you to not post in this thread anymore since your going to personaly bash me instead of making valueable statments to this topic you only made one valubale statment to this topic, then surounded it with a bunch of BULL flamming. LEARN TO READ, then go and read my first post in this thread.. I said "this is not intented to start a flame war" And I very clearly stated what I wanted people to say which was wht kind of T-stat do you use and if it is a single do you notice any difference from the OEM? and thats all you had to answer but instead you decided to try and start a flam war, which is why Im asking you to not post in this thread anymore.

Methman

PS: It seems that your argument is that if you use a single stage T-stat it will stick closed when it fails and ruin your engine. All T-stats are designed to stick open when they fail, however sometimes they will stick closed which will cause damage, so whats to say that a 2-stage couldn't stick closed when it fails.
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
Re: Re: horsefluff, misinformation and thermodynamics

SixSick6 said:
Methman.....consider yourself SERVED......some might say.....

CALZOWN3D :lol:
LOL, yeah sicksix6, but I don't get served by anyone wether they like to think they did or not. Where was that posted anyway six? in this thread? because I couldn't find it. And again what he said was personal bashin and he was trying to start a flam war, which is what I clearly stated was not the point of this thread, so basicly sleepcounter is not contributing to this topic at all.

Methman
 

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Methman said:
ok so what IM learning from this thread is....

1: some people like sleepcounter rather personaly bash than contrubit to the topic.

He provided a detailed explanation for Mazda's claims. He showed you that maybe you don't know everything about thermodynamics and engineering. I don't see this as a personal bash.

2-stage T-stat: You start your car and its cold and go boosting right away, the 2-stage T-stat may help prevent damage from occouring to the head due to the more gradual warming up.
Now with that said...how many of us start our car's cold and go boosting right away...Im betting that non of us do. So if your using a single stage T-stat all you have to do Is let the car warm to running temp before you boost which is wht most people do anyway.
[/B]
The engine still heats up either way. A thermostat will open at the same temp regardless of if you're boosting with a cold engine or not. I'm no expert at thermodynamics, but your explanation doesn't seem adequate to me. You can call that "bashing", but I call it "rebuttal."
 

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dissimilar metals, cement heads

Methman said:
because every T-stat aftermarket or not is souposed to stick open when they fail
I think you're making that up. State your source.

Methman said:
{his car could need a headgasket for a different reason like too much boost}
If his head is warped from thermal shock/uneven cooling, the threshold for "too much boost" will be lower. Head gasket seals less well when head warped.

Methman said:
{certanly not because of thermostats of any kind, do a search on "head Gaskets" and you will find it was because of too much boost}
Sorry the connection between "too much boost" and head warpage eludes you. I cannot make it any clearer.

Methman said:
{isn't it possible that if you had bought a 2-stage that could stick closed too? I think so.}
Sorry if I was unclear on that. Didn't stick closed. Didn't stick open. Tested it after engine expired and it was fine. Engine didn't overheat, it distorted the aluminum rotor housings due to thermal shock caused by single stage thermostat.

Methman said:
{I thought we were talking about the MX-6 GT not the rx-7}
I thought we were talking about single stage vs. 2-stage thermostat. Let's check what the first post in the thread says:

Please only reply if you have had experience with both the 2-stage OEM T-stat and a single stage aftermarket T-stat. Those of you who have never tried a single stage T-stat because your stuck on buying nothing buy Mazda's 2-stager, you need not reply.

Since I had experience on both, I presumed you would value my input.

By the way, I never said rx-7, you did. I said "rotary" and "12A". While you may consider them equivalent, you are wrong on that account, too.

Methman said:
{again Proff, and Im lost are you back to talking about the MX-6 again or are you still on the rotory engine Because they're two tottaly different engines}
Agreed, they are different. However, they have two important things in common:
  1. compression is contained between two dissimilar metals, cast iron and cast aluminum
  2. Mazda prescribes a 2-stage thermostat for both
    [/list=1]

    Maybe just a coincidence, hay?

    Methman said:
    {again your talking about the Rx-7 a tottaly different engine, the rotory could react way differently with a single stage than a normal engine, and also again even if it was a 2-stage it still could of stuck closed}
    • It did not stick closed. You made that up.
    • It was not an RX-7. You made that up.
    • While a rotary reacts differently to a lot of things, the reaction of aluminum and cast iron to heat is the same irrespective of engine. GM made the same mistake with the Vega engine, only they had aluminum block and a cast iron head. Different configuration, same result.
      [/list=a]

      Methman said:
      {probley not. no, its probly due to boost or using a cheap headgasket}
      The sealing ability of the head gasket (its ability to contain a boosted charge) is directly related to the flatness of the sealing surface. The flatness of the sealing surface is dependent upon measured, gradual, even cooling. Measured. gradual, even cooling is provided by a 2-stage thermostat.

      Methman said:
      you seem to think your more clever than everyone on this board
      No way. There are a couple of areas where I have a bit of knowledge that I like to share, but a lot more areas where I'm in awe of others with infinitely more knoweldge and experience.

      In terms of 2-stage thermostats, I have some experience. You asked for input from anyone who had experience. I guess maybe you meant anyone who had experience and agreed with your point of view, because you seem to be attacking mine.

      Methman said:
      when we start cranking the boost our head gaskets can blow fairly easy
      Especially if our head is warped from using inadequate/incorrect cooling system parts.

      Methman said:
      you went on and posted a bunch of crap that was not needed to determin an outcome of this topic
      I thought it was. Sorry you saw things differently.

      Methman said:
      So Im going to politly ask you to not post in this thread anymore since your going to personaly bash me
      • You're not being very poite
      • disagreeing with you is not bashing you
      • pointing out your errors is not bashing you

      Methman said:
      you decided to try and start a flam war, which is why Im asking you to not post in this thread anymore
      That's not what I decided. You have no idea what I decided, same as you have no idea what cooked Illswyn's head gasket.

      Quit pretending that you have insight in areas where in actuality, you lack any whatsoever.

      I'll post in this, or any other thread, when I believe I have something of value to contribute. If you think you're being unfairly "flammed", report me to the mods.

      Methman said:
      It seems that your argument is that if you use a single stage T-stat it will stick closed when it fails and ruin your engine.
      Nope, that's not my argument. Find another straw man.
 

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Methman said:
I think that the 2-stage is just for safty for dumb people,
I think copper head gaskets are for people who are too dumb to use the proper thermostat. I guess we all have different opinions.
 

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I'm about to start charging you guys for Aleave. I thought I had summed it up for everyone but you guys had to keep on fighting about everything. Sleepcounter: I moved your stuff because it would be pointless to have there if Methman's posts weren't there. I'll leave this one open and you can bitch all you want guys.

Original post: http://www.mx6.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=76744
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 · (Edited)
SleepCounter said:
I think copper head gaskets are for people who are too dumb to use the proper thermostat. I guess we all have different opinions.
OK I don't Even care anymore you guys can spend $40 on a 2-stage and I'll keep spending $13 on my single stage. And if a single stage T-stat will warp the head causing the headgasket to blow...how come that after a year of driving with a single stage my head hasn't warped??? and I just had the head off recentally to replace the head gasket (BECAUSE I OVER BOOSTED ON A CHEAP HEAD GASKET , I hit 20 psi's) and had it pressure tested and there was not even a hairline crack or warpage to my head after 1 year of driving on my single stage T-stat.
I called my "Liscened" Mechanic last night (who put this single stage T-stat in for me) and ask him if useing a single stage T-stat would ruin the head and headgasket on my engine...He laughed and said that it wasn't really nesscary for a car thats being used for a everday driver, but one "may" want to use a 2-stager if they're using the car as a track only car and racing all of the time, then you may want a more quility 2-stage T-stat. But Basicly he said that a single stage T-stat will work fine with no problems ever! and I believe him more than I believe some guys on mx-6.com who just read the manual and are not "liscened" Mechanics. Because he is a "LISCENED" Mechanic that can repair any kind of car you bring in to him. Also he was aware that the mx-6 uses a 2-stage but he also knew that a single stage would be fine and would keep the amount of $$$ that I would owe him down.
So Take that as you want to, but just remember a Liscened mechanic agrees with me. And hes not out to make a buck on parts he makes his money on labour, so if you go to mazda they may tell you somthing different since they make money off they're parts.

Methman

PS: the reason why Im using a copper Headgasket is because I wanted one as strong as I can get to ensure that it wouldn't blow out under high boost, and for future reasons of going really high on boost. I didn't get a copper headgasket because I thought that a OEM one would blow off because of a single stage T-stat , :rolleyes: (what you say is NOT TRUE with the MX-6 mabey your 12A but thats a tottaly different engine that may be more senstive to that kind of stuff than a mx-6), a single stage T-stat will not blow the headgasket, ask any liscened Mechanic in your area, if using a single stage T-stat in the MX-6 that requires a 2-stage T-stat will ruin the head and gasket (and don't go to MAzda) I gurantee you they will say no it will not!

Methman
 

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I need to "log on" on the weekends more. I always miss the good stuff.
For the record, I have a single stage, but only because I didn't think of the thermal shock aspect. That makes sense, the same reason you don't use cold water to fill an radiator after a boilover without running the engine and adding water slowly. I'll be purchasing a dual stage asap.
 

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when i bought my car it had 153k miles on it. as soon as i got the car i replaced the t-stat with a single stage without knowing it required the dual stage. the motor would always gradually get warmer and warmer if it sat in traffic or even in a drive through line. then i noticed that the power had dropped off a bit. i eventually found out that the head gasket was junk. not becuase i overboosted. i hadnt even touch the boost setting. this was at 163k miles. so i ended up replacing the whole motor and installing a dual stage t-stat. my temp needle stays right in the middle all the time. so far i have put 4 thousand miles on the new motor. and i have the boost turned up to 14 psi too.

and also if mazda were trying to make a lot of money off of selling dual stage t-stats then why dont they require them in all of their cars?
 

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Methman said:
just remember a Liscened mechanic agrees with me. And hes not out to make a buck on parts he makes his money on labour,
So, what yer saying is, he doesn't wanna make ten bucks on a 2-stage thermostat.

I don't blame him, if there's a chance to make a grand on and engine job. I'd tell ya to use the cheap thermostat, too!:D
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
SleepCounter said:
So, what yer saying is, he doesn't wanna make ten bucks on a 2-stage thermostat.

I don't blame him, if there's a chance to make a grand on and engine job. I'd tell ya to use the cheap thermostat, too!:D
See this is the problem you dumbass you think it will ruin the engine but its spectulation on your part, he knows a single stage T-stat will not ruin the engine, as do I, and he dosn't try and "break" my car to get money out of me, hes not like wayman.
He stated the fact that a single stage T_stat will not hurt the car.
Now Im done talking about this to dumb people with thick skulls, I'll keep driving on my single stage, and when it breaks I'll put another single stager in, then 3 years later I'll post and show you guys that my car is fine. By the way I live in Canada and it gets as low a -40 degrees here in the winter, and I used the single stage T-stat over the winter too.


Moltar...your headgasket was probly bad because it was more than likly the origonal one so of course a 15 year old headgasket could blow under stock boost. The gradualy getting warmer and warmer wasn't the single stage T-stat it was the car overheating because of the blowen headgasket.

IM DONE

methman
 

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to each his own........

Methman said:
See this is the problem you dumbass you think it will ruin the engine but its spectulation on your part,

and he dosn't try and "break" my car to get money out of me, hes not like wayman.

Now Im done talking about this to dumb people with thick skulls, I'll keep driving on my single stage, and when it breaks I'll put another single stager in

IM DONE

methman

It's about time ! Be your own judge.
This subject has been worn out and run over.
Bottom line is that each individual should do as they see fit for their own personal operating and driving satisfaction desired from a "6".
'Nuff said..........
 

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Methman said:


Moltar...your headgasket was probly bad because it was more than likly the origonal one so of course a 15 year old headgasket could blow under stock boost. The gradualy getting warmer and warmer wasn't the single stage T-stat it was the car overheating because of the blowen headgasket.

IM DONE

methman
i knew you were going to say that. thats why i purposly left out the fact that at the time the exhuast turbine had made contact with the housing and the shaft was seized. that meant that there was no boost at all. i seriously doubt that the age of the head gasket was the primary contributing factor in the failure. the motor getting warmer and warmer was not the head gasket. i never had any water in the oil or any smoke from the exhuast during the whole time. the coolant was good too. i flushed the system when i changed the t-stat. when i pulled the motor it ran just fine other than the turbo was junk. and when i pulled the head off, the gasket look normal. but i'll let you and your mechanic be the judge.
 

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The Mazda (2 rotor) rotary, for those of you unfamiliar with it, is sorta like a club sandwich -- the "bread" is end housings and intermediate housing made of cast iron and the "filling" is rotor housings made of aluminum.

if you read the rest of Sleepcounter's post, you'll get the Calzow3nd part.....

I don't get the problem that you guys have with the dual stage thermostat...just buy it and use it and drop it
 
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