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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Hi crew,

It's a testament to either the 4WS in the MX6, or more likely my own stupidity, but I only just clicked that the MX6 is a front wheel drive car!

*D'oh!*

Anyway, since I realised this, I've been reading up on the differences and in particular about oversteer in RWD cars vs understeer in FWD cars and cornering. There's a few mentions of left-foot braking techniques for understeer (i.e. left foot a little brake, right foot a little accelerator, steer) when you have problems getting around a corner.

I know that 4WS is supposed to help correct over/understeer to neutral, but without putting her sideways I'm not going to be able to test that just yet. I can always use advice from more experienced drivers than me, especially since I've never had a FWD car before.

So I'm wondering:
* Has anyone ever been in a situation where you've started to lose traction in a corner?
* Did you have 4WS? What do you think its effect was?
* Did you try something like LFB (above) to get through the corner?
* What happened? :D or :(
 

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* Has anyone ever been in a situation where you've started to lose traction in a corner?
yes. and i learned well from it. the same round-about got me 3 times in the wet. i starting losing traction, and slammed my foot on the brake, then the car done a 180 degree spin. this happened 2 more times as i was trying to master the round-about hehe....anyway, the next time i hit the round about at 70km/h and as usual i began to lose traction in the wet, but instead of braking, i floored the accelerator, and the FWD pulled itself out. in other words, when u lose traction, dont press the brake, mash the gas.

Did you have 4WS? What do you think its effect was?
i know othersd will disagree with me on this, but 4WS has always made me lose traction a lot easier than non-4WS cars. i drive my brothers liberty and my dad's camry quite often, they are both FWD's...and they seem to be able to keep traction for much longer. i.e. in my mx6, the rear seems to fishy out, where as the camry asnd liberty do not, only thing i can put this down to is the 4WS and the fact that our car's have a light rear end.

Did you try something like LFB (above) to get through the corner?
never, and quite frankly, it will probably get u in trouble, especially if ur car is manual.
 

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your best bet is to point the front of the car forward when you want to go forward. I found that helped alot.
 

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mtopxsecret6 said:
your best bet is to point the front of the car forward when you want to go forward. I found that helped alot.

LOL. You do that too?
If you get power understeer happening, reduce your steering angle a little until you regain traction and then turn back in. If you jump off the throttle you'll end up pointing the other way.

Yes I have 4WS, no I don't agree with duckman. I've pushed my baby enough...but not tooooo much.

Hey Ducktape, you always make me smile....

and i learned well from it. the same round-about got me 3 times in the wet
you learned well, just not quickly. :)
 

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get your self an upgraded rear sway bar .. this will greatly reduce your steering woes and you will be less likely to get in to trouble in a cornering situation.. I have 4WS and the difference in fitting the 18mm whiteline bar was amazing .. and for the money . it is well worth it..
I believe K-Mack make them for our cars now as well ..
 

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you learned well, just not quickly.
i was trying to take the corner at 70km/h every time. and i conquered it on the 4th try(after the 1st spinout, i didnt press the brake, so no i didnt learn slowly, i just tryed different angle's and throttle amount at the 'traction-loss' point..dont forget this was in the wet hehe).

i never knew what understeer/oversteer even meant at the time hehe.

i got a rear sway bar already, but i will go out and get a 18mm one like u suggested mr mx6. thx mate :)
 

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Sorry mate I wasn’t suggesting so much for you, more for biggles and the second gen.. the stock rear bar is like a tooth pick…
But yea if you have an upgraded one .. but not as big as 18mm you would want look @ it.. I think you can get a 20mm as well bit it is a bit hard for a dally driver..
 

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least for my car...

I can push through a corner at 60-70km/h and only just start to slide a little...

I just keep my foot down and hope for the best lol...
 

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ahh no worries.

ive never driven a 2nd gen, but i would imagine they would weigh more than a 1st gen. so yeah a rear and front sway bar would be a really good idea.
 

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Im finally getting my swaybar fitted tommorrow, after two failed attempts. Cross fingers its ok this time. The main thing ive noticed with the 4ws is that it seems to cure a lot of the understeer problems, havent managed to get the rear end loose...yet. The car does seem to wallow a lot if you fang it around corners with the stock rear bar.
 

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well I'm proberly more on the FWD king style driver

In that I have driven mostly FWD and most of them a mix.
I started RWD datto then IZUZU. but after that it was FWD from of course N/A f2's to 4AGE's and Z's and 20Valve to FWD 3.0L magnas'
I also love Mid-engined RWD cars ( proberly the hardest IMO to control at above 150 in corner) Lots of Fun.

The things to remember when driving FWD hard is
- change of direction underbraking is harder
- watch the weight of the car the more weight you can keep on the back wheels the more the car will responde to inputs.
Eg don't late brake that hard, allow the suspension to recover flat when cornering - this helps heap especailly if you have hard suspension as any bumps mid corner won't thump and put you off line, something if your lower you have to think about. Maybe not at 80ks but when your at 120k's any change in road surface will make alot of difference.
- allow for understeer, don't hope it won't just allow that little area for it.
- FWD in most cases when the rear slides adjust via the wheel not foot or brake. Most FWD cars caster and camber settings can be killers when lack of grip and the rear slides. 90% of FWD won't oversteer even under lift-off oversteer, you haveto be doing stupid stuff to get it. In doing if your rear grip is poor not only can the front not repsonde as it trys to stop or power-out as well as steering the car.


On Leftt- foot braking- If you drive manual find and open car park large enoguh an pratice in that area. I do in in my car with my right foot - but I have massive feet so one foot does and it's an auto I just use it too keep boost up. I do use my left foot but 2 size 17 close togeather can be dangerous.

Left foot braking is more for wide open swepper corners that tighten and blind - it's where I find it works best.

I've driven a 2nd gen and it is a much more balanced car then a 1st gen turbo not as good as any of the N/A 4cylinders.

The station Wagon I drive (not often now-banned again someone saw video of me in the car- like a 360 in church street is bad)
Is stock but as I have said before has no 4WS no sports suspension the it's appox 10-20 k's behind my mx-6 in my favourite corners - 5-10k's due to power another 5-10k's due to it having a higher roll-center and the tyres not being as good. The again as I have said before, only a few car have kept up to the rear of the wagon. "Give it up to BOOSTING6"
 

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I think everyone has pretty much covered what I could tell you and then some.
I will say though that if you oversteer, don't hit the brakes. This is because the rear wheels already have poor traction and hitting the brakes will transfer even more weight to the front of the car, with the result most likely being a 180. In this situation I generally stay off the power and the brakes and regain control pretty quickly.
In my previous car that had firm suspension at the back end this didn't quite work once. Got on the power out of a corner when it seems my rear tyres were still over some water from sprinklers, the back end went i eased off and fishied a bit though I almost had it then it went. In this case staying on the power may have helped, however since often the reason for the oversteer is the pace you are taking a given corner, I tend to doubt mashing it is always going to be the best solution.
 

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rodhog said:

90% of FWD won't oversteer even under lift-off oversteer, you haveto be doing stupid stuff to get it.
I think mine is (was) in the 10% of oversteer FWD cars. It was so bad in the wet that I was scared to drive round corners at or even below legal speeds. Hopefully these new tyres, lowering, and a good wheel alignment will fix the prob.
 

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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
Interesting read, folks - thanks for your thought-provoking replies. Wow, I'd never have thought of pointing the car forward when I want to GO forward :)

I'm not planning on going out and doing this for fun tomorrow, as much as I would like to follow ducktape's example :D I'm just interested, because I've only ever driven RWD cars and I didn't notice that this handled any differently (in fact, feels a lot more solid in corners even compared with my MGB which has little body roll and has such a low centre of gravity). I put it down to the 4WS and the fact that I don't drive as hard as most of you!

However, I'm really talking extreme conditions here - road conditions like greasy roads and black ice (which you do get here, and it's as scary as all hell) or whoops-I-went-around-the-corner-too-fast-and-the-trees-look-nice-this-time-of-year situations (which may or may not be deliberate in your case ducktape ;) )

I guess Iwant to have some idea of what to expect in the car's handling in these situations (sounds like a rear sway bar may be the go.. thanks for the tip MrMX6 - convincing the other half that I'm going to do things to the car is a battle though :D ).

There's definitely something in LFB:

"LFB is a method that is used to help the car to turn. It is used to transfer weight to the front wheels so that they can take a better bite (Increase in weight on front end of car). This is also used to help the car turn if there is a push (Understeer) in the front of the car. It also allows the back of the car to "Lighten up" so that you can get the back end to rotate a little.

This rotation will create oversteer if you do it to much. Practicing your method is the only way to get good at it. This doesn't mean stabbing the brakes, but just covering them a little bit."

Of course, if you drive a manual and you're coming down a gear at the time, you couldn't use LFB, you have to heel-toe and I imagine be oh-so-gentle on the heel!

From what I understand of it, the idea is the brake shifts the weight to the back of the car (to provide grip and traction) and you balance that with acceleration + turning force from the front (the idea being that you don't have enough turning force when you understeer, so you need to turn more in the open drifting corners like rodhog said).

Most people (well, OK - probably just me) instinctively either try to correct by overcorrecting, braking, or by hopping off the accelerator.

Just some interesting thoughts from an article about snow driving:

"The result of bad steering wheel control is that your vehicle will become imbalanced. Once that happens, you'll probably skid. Therefore, it's important to stay in control of your vehicle's weight distribution.
[..]
A front-wheel-drive, front-engine sedan, such as a Honda Accord, also has a light rear, so that if you abruptly lift off the accelerator in a corner, all the weight shifts to the front and the rear has little grip. The result can be that the car will pull to the side in a corner and spin out.
[..]
Understeering is usually caused by entering a corner too quickly and then turning. To turn the vehicle effectively, your wheels need grip. If you react to an understeer skid by turning more, you're only asking for more grip, which is unavailable.

The same is true if you brake. Instead in an understeer skid, carefully adjust your steering wheel until you regain some grip at the front wheels. Once grip is restored, gently and precisely add steering."

I guess the spirit in which I asked my question was that I like the idea of treating the car a little more precisely than I do now, understanding the balance and dynamics of how the car moves and performs - mainly in the interests of trying to be a better driver.

(On an unrelated note, I was discussing this with my mother last night, because she's probably going to own her first FWD car soon, and I was interested in her experiences in cornering. What do I get? "Are you sure you're not a guy, AnnMarie?" she says :rolleyes: )
 

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Most people (well, OK - probably just me) instinctively either try to correct by overcorrecting, braking, or by hopping off the accelerator.
instinctively, this is what i also done. but i learned after the 1st spin out. hehe.

u should go try find a big round-about somewhere where there is nothing to hit on the sides(like i did hehe) and practise there.
 

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CardinalBiggles said:
From what I understand of it, the idea is the brake shifts the weight to the back of the car (to provide grip and traction)
Braking into a corner, shifts the weight forwards increasing the chance of "plow through" understeer. You need to shed your speed before you enter a corner, turn in, then accelerate late in the apex & out of it. Straight lines through the corner are faster with less traction problems. Boosting with too much wheel angle will send you straight on everytime.


PS. never realized you were a girl!
 

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either way, unless ur into some serious racing, and have ur car setup perfect(i.e. lowered, tyres, chamber, suspension, sway bars etc)...dont intentionally try to go fast around a corner because chances are u will lose it espcecially if u have not owned a FWD car before.

my car is set up well for hard cornering, but i rarely take a hard corner.
 

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Discussion Starter · #19 · (Edited)
crusty said:
Braking into a corner, shifts the weight forwards increasing the chance of "plow through" understeer.
With you there Crusty, and there's absolutely no doubt in my mind that braking *before* the corner and accelerating through is correct, (that's how my mum taught me to drive, "Brake before the corner, dear, then power through"). Doesn't matter if you're FWD or RWD there, I don't think that philosophy changes :)

I guess what I'm rambling about is more on losing and regaining control, once you are already in an understeer skid situation (through road conditions, deliberately fanging it through a roundabout etc.).

From what I'm reading about LFB in a skid, the idea is to balance the shift of weight you're talking about by using the accelerator (shifts it back) and brake (shifts it forwards as you say) at the same time, but tiny amounts for each (because dropping acceleration has the effect of engine braking).

Planting your foot on either will naturally make things go crazy.

Originally posted by ducktape69:

either way, unless ur into some serious racing, and have ur car setup perfect(i.e. lowered, tyres, chamber, suspension, sway bars etc)...dont intentionally try to go fast around a corner because chances are u will lose it espcecially if u have not owned a FWD car before.
Duck, you're absolutely right - and I don't intend to be in a situation where I have to use any of it (mind you, it might be fun to try in a controlled environment where I'm not going to kill myself). But if I'm coming up to a 35 advised corner, and find that it's got black ice or a giant patch of oil I'm not expecting.. well, I'd hate to have to learn about the differences between FWD and RWD in that situation while I'm in it.

Are there any other big differences between driving a FWD/RWD that anyone's found in their experience? Outside of "yeah, RWD are driven from the rear wheels, not the front" naturally.

[edit: PS. Crusty - I hope it explains some of the more.. erm.. odd questions I ask! If it makes you more comfortable, just think of me as a pirate instead :D Yarrr!]
 

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CardinalBiggles said:

[edit: PS. Crusty - I hope it explains some of the more.. erm.. odd questions I ask! If it makes you more comfortable, just think of me as a pirate instead :D Yarrr!]
Oh, I'm comfortable. My comfort level is up there at about 9.5. Sometimes I'm so comfortable that I just nod off for no ......zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
 
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