well my three or four month journey to install a Millenia intake manifold is finally coming to close with rather unsatisfying results. After attempting the install myself and then going from shop to shop to help me with it, i finally got a mechanic to sit down with me and explain everything. The biggest difference between the two is the ports coming from the bottom of the mani. The millenia has square ones while the KLDE has oval ones. This is a problem because it the air runs into any sort of obstruction, it creates turbulance and can even hurt air flow. The way around this is to either have the heads port matched or port and polished. The first costs about $200 and still doesn't open up the flow. Port and polishing costs closer to $400-500 and really only shows a gain of 5-10 hp. However, if you run a turbo, i'm told that port and polishing is actually worth it. The other problem you run into with higher air flow is fuel management. This is another pricey part of this whole extravaganza. So are those few hp worth all this money? I say no. I don't really know about the ZE mani, but i know that this project was a waste of my time and money. well, live and learn....
Millenia IM, worth it? No.
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wtf are you talking about? What that mechanic told you has truth to it, but that is not the entire case here. Even if the ports do not match 100% that Millenia IM flows far better than than the stock kl03 one. I don't doubt that the abrubt change between the IM and the heads does cause turbulence, but it is not enough negate in doing this mod. A simple fix (as opposed to port matching the heads) is just to get a set of Outlaw Phenolic Spacers and make the change gradual. In addition to larger runners the manifold is designed to flow more amount of air through it at higher RPMS, so there is more than just one change. You do not want to polish the runners anyway. I can't remember exactly why, but it has something to do with the atomization of fuel I think.
The higher flow of air with this mani is well within capable range of your stock fuel system, so scratch that off the list. I currently have a ZE IM installed without any form of port matching and the difference in the upper RPMs is amazing. The engine just sounds so much healthier. You should really try to get this thing installed and you will see what I am talking about. Granted the ZE and the Millenia are not the exact same, but both flow much better than stock.
If this was not worth it then why do sooo many people swap IMs between here and probetalk? Search around some and you will find this is a highly recommended mod. If you still believe that this was a waste of your time/money sell it to somebody here...I am sure they would love to have it.
I still think you should try this again. Contact "Funzie" on this board. He just recently installed a Millenia IM on his mx6 and really knows his stuff.
The higher flow of air with this mani is well within capable range of your stock fuel system, so scratch that off the list. I currently have a ZE IM installed without any form of port matching and the difference in the upper RPMs is amazing. The engine just sounds so much healthier. You should really try to get this thing installed and you will see what I am talking about. Granted the ZE and the Millenia are not the exact same, but both flow much better than stock.
If this was not worth it then why do sooo many people swap IMs between here and probetalk? Search around some and you will find this is a highly recommended mod. If you still believe that this was a waste of your time/money sell it to somebody here...I am sure they would love to have it.
I still think you should try this again. Contact "Funzie" on this board. He just recently installed a Millenia IM on his mx6 and really knows his stuff.
I have had close looks at Millenia manifolds, and ZE manifolds, and the millenia one looks pretty bad flow wise. It has the same kinked neck as the DE manifold.
I too wondered if people would see the differences they talk about when changing to the ZE manifold but keeping the restrictive DE heads. It would be good if someone done a dyno test before and after, instead of seat of the pants tests.
The only tests I have seen that come close to comparing is these;
http://www.interpreptuning.com/engines_mazda.htm
But they are done on an engine with big port ZE heads.
I too wondered if people would see the differences they talk about when changing to the ZE manifold but keeping the restrictive DE heads. It would be good if someone done a dyno test before and after, instead of seat of the pants tests.
The only tests I have seen that come close to comparing is these;
http://www.interpreptuning.com/engines_mazda.htm
But they are done on an engine with big port ZE heads.
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Could have sworn the ZE and Millenia heads are almost the same, matter of fact, of the any test I have seen on Probetalk, all seem to say that the Millenia heads are actually better than the ZE heads. And the same kinked neck has nothing to do with how much it flows.
Anyways, back on topic, I have found that the majority of mechanics are excellent when it comes to fixing stock parts on a car. But when you throw a performance mod at them they go out the wazoo and sound like complete idiots. A friend of mine is an ASE certified Master Mechanic and used to be the head mechanic of a large Toyota dealership until he opened his own business and he sounds like a dumbass when it comes to performance modification. He was flabberghasted at my Intake and looked dumbfounded when I showed him the headers.
I can guarantee that the mechanic you talked to fall in exactly the same category as my friend. That means he/she can be an awesome mechanic but thrown any aftermarket stuff at them and they will revert back to book talk about how OEM designs are made much better. This point is driven into most mechanics minds by the way, as a way for the car companies to sell more replacement parts.
Anyways, back on topic, I have found that the majority of mechanics are excellent when it comes to fixing stock parts on a car. But when you throw a performance mod at them they go out the wazoo and sound like complete idiots. A friend of mine is an ASE certified Master Mechanic and used to be the head mechanic of a large Toyota dealership until he opened his own business and he sounds like a dumbass when it comes to performance modification. He was flabberghasted at my Intake and looked dumbfounded when I showed him the headers.
I can guarantee that the mechanic you talked to fall in exactly the same category as my friend. That means he/she can be an awesome mechanic but thrown any aftermarket stuff at them and they will revert back to book talk about how OEM designs are made much better. This point is driven into most mechanics minds by the way, as a way for the car companies to sell more replacement parts.
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That would fix everythingRadar said:
Radar you basterd have the IM install so quick, I still have mine sitting next to my bed
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What are you waiting for....don't blame me because you don't have your car with you at school }) j/p....
At least you finally got it. That took forever. Now if it would stop raining I could install my pacesetters and start leaking exhaust gases all over the place and make my exhaust probablly sound like poo, but I should probablly fix the leak in the roof of my house...oh well.
At least you finally got it. That took forever. Now if it would stop raining I could install my pacesetters and start leaking exhaust gases all over the place and make my exhaust probablly sound like poo, but I should probablly fix the leak in the roof of my house...oh well.
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People crash car for lunch here, I ain't seeing my six get bustedRadar said:
And yes it did take foreva but hey it was a good deal so it's worth of waiting haha... I wanna feel the big power gain when I snap in the TB, IM and Cams at the same time :E Go fix those leak and powder coated it }) I was gonna get a PS headers and powder coated, but I think I'm just gonna get a set of OBX nowRadar said:
yeah i bought the Outlaws and dremmelled the transition and it didn't work. Also the rails are exactly the same size as the DE. and note that you have a ZE mani and not the Millenia, they are different in a number of ways. But you are dead wrong on the square to oval transition. It's simple physics, when the air flows in and hits a wall, it has to go back or sideways which will obstruct the other air flowing through. it has to have a better transition then one thats only a 1/4 inch long.
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What are you saying by "didn't work?" I know I have a ZE mani, but a good friend of mine has a Millenia one and has had nothing but positive things to say about it. As I said earlier...I agree with you that having that port mismatch does cause turbulence and negate performance, but not so much that it should deter you from doing the swap. Using simple physics I would like you to explain how using a set of tapered spacers to help with the transition from one port type to another is a bad thing....or dead wrong as you put it. Granted it is not the best solution, but it is cost effective and better than nothing. Obviously going with port matched heads would be best, but that is not an option for most of us.
If you grind the spacers decently and can get them on without a vacuum leak they'll work fine. (Or at least good enough.) It's certainly worth it. It sounds as though your issue with the spacers is the very reason I don't like spacers, vacuum leaks. A heathly dose of gasket sealant should help. And solve all your issues.
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