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Discussion Starter #1
I have been running piggy back controllers on my cars for years.
And have looked into many types and brands. They all seem to lack features (fuel piggyback controllers don't do timing and Timing controllers don't do fuel) and they all cost too much. With the exception of some model specific units like URD additional injector and timing conditioner for Toyota's (435$) or motorcycle devices like Daytona twin tec controllers (+- 250$).

Discussing fuel control with UncleDirrt I decided to look for anything new on the market ...
UncleDirrt decided on the SDS XIC, it is the 2nd generation of the SDS EIC I have been using.
The XIC has been around for about 20years now, it has had some changes over the years and has a few neat features.
It has barometric compensation setting and it can monitor a 0-5V wideband signal and give a warning or ad 25% fuel compensation when reading lean, It can also operated and regulate a boost control solenoid valve.

But it does not run off the wideband signal, it still uses fixed maps based on set-point and fuel gain, rpm and Map pressure.
The XIC is also fairly expensive.

Ripping off and simplifying the XIC lean warning set-up:
I like the idea of lean condition boost cut and decided to look at Innovate LC-1 settings to see if I could program one of the analog outputs to only put out voltage at a certain A/F, say 0V below 11A/f and only put out voltage above 11 A/F. Using a pressure switch to control the analog output to only send a signal above 25psi (water meth boost level) to a relay that cuts power to the water meth boost solenoid if A/F's go above 11. This is not possible on my current set-up because both analog outputs are used (Narrow band to ecu and DB gauge), however is possible with the XD-16 gauge that uses the LC-1 stereo port to give A/F readings, the LC1 Stereo port is not affected by changing analog output settings. This would allow for a water meth injection system failure failsafe by monitoring it's A/F results instead of it's cc per minute flow under operation. In the advanced analog output settings the response speed may need to be changed and the Error output voltage should be set to 5V.

The following set up can be used as a fail safe for anyone running extra fuel and higher boost than the factory ecu and injectors will run at (above 15psi). This requires using the serial out port to display Air Fuel readings or using MTX series gauge/controllers.
13558


But honestly I am getting tired of adding relay's, pressure switches, toggle switches and LED warning lights to my build.
Although I like the idea of an A/F monitoring failsafe for the water/methanol injection system more than running an alcohol resistant, high pressure flow sensor/meter and running an arduino type controller to monitor and operate a boost cut failsafe. I think the next idea is better.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I think it is possible to build and to program piggyback stand alone.
A controller that can be used by anyone adding or upgrading a turbo on a single coil vehicle.
A simple system that controls injectors based on air fuel ratio's instead of fixed maps based on RPM and manifold pressure.
A controller that also pulls timing (advancing timing would be to complex) and allows for a quick switch 2nd map for water/methanol injection or Nitrous Oxide or...

The layout and wiring would be simple:
13556


-The controller would use coil signal (rpm) and map sensor voltage to chart a map and chase the 0-5V wideband signal with injector pulse milliseconds.
-Wideband signal loss failsafes would be selectable. 1- Cut boost and stop operation. 2- Locked in millisecond injector map with a rich correction factor selected in 0.5% increments.
-Lean condition and knock condition failsafes would be to cut boost or pull timing or run an enrichment map.
-The controller would interrupt the coil pulse signal wire going to the coil and run a bypass relay, if the system has an error or shuts down Coil pulse goes straight from ECU to Coil and boost is cut to wastegate only psi.
-Auxiliary imputs would be used to switch maps for different grades of fuel or water meth or Nitrous ... sending a 12V or Ground signal to the auxiliary input to switch maps (toggle switch, water injection on signal or Nitrous trigger switch...) .
-Timing would be pulled by 1* increments when selected and have a programmable knock Lean compensation map.

User interface should be simple, one chart for fuel and timing, fuel is represented in A/F ratio and timing in -degrees.
13557

No entry would mean no action.
The controller would run in closed loop only mode when calibrating (o2 signal only) and write an open loop milli second pulse for the injectors. Once calibrated the unit would run based on the open loop map and use close loop wideband signal to correct the map.
By using a wideband signal to control fueling there is no need for barometric or temperature compensations to fueling.

I am looking for suggestions on opened source tuning software and affordable devices they will work with.
 
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All of this mucking arouind with piggyback controllers, why? I would suggest you look at speeduino.com as a cheap way to get into a proper engine management system and would even be able to be used as a base for a piggyback if you really wanted. I am running one of these myself and am happy with the results so far.
 

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Discussion Starter #3
All of this mucking arouind with piggyback controllers, why? I would suggest you look at speeduino.com as a cheap way to get into a proper engine management system and would even be able to be used as a base for a piggyback if you really wanted. I am running one of these myself and am happy with the results so far.
I am a member of speeduino.com forum and have done lots of reading on that forum but I don't find any software programs just talk about them unlike the arduino forum where everyone posts their programing so you can pillage ideas and bits of programming from everyone until you get what you need, unfortunately not much is automotive related. Can't find any software downloads on Speeduino.com.
I have downloaded Tuner studio ms instructions and Megalog Viewer but it requires paid registration just to play with and get to know the software, unlike MSD Graph view , R4 controller, Logworks2 ...
MSD and R4 you can write maps without connecting a device but not Logworks (Shame on you innovate) but the software is all free for everyone to download.
Speeduino was my first though for this controller but because I can't play with the programming I don't know if it will do what I need or how hard it is to program it to do what I need it to.

Question about speeduino as stand alone, can you run 8 injectors or extra injectors with the speeduino, also can you run it with the factory coil, distributor and sensors...? The reason I ask is not only because I find the factory 88-89 parts are very reliable but I also have dozens of replacements for each, I keep one of everything at home and 2 axles, an ecu, various hose clamps, an alternator and all belts in the trunk in case anything does fail, I can change it on the side of the road.
This 626 will be my daily driver and my car comes before everything else so if I blow an engine or transmission I have to rebuild it or swap it in 1 day. Once the 626gt is running the Mazda3 i am driving will be parked at my shop and (knock on wood) it will rust and rot and I will never have to drive it again. My plan is to start working on the 1989 MX6 GT as soon as the 626 is running.
Also what are the cold start compensation maps, and warm up maps like to work with?


It might sound weird to some that I want to drive the modified cars all the time but most of the modifications (suspension, steering components, sway bars, mounts, clutch, turbo, transmission work...) make the cars stronger and more reliable on the rough roads here, most of the work was done to survive these road conditions. In contrast the bone stock Mazda 3 which should be a more reliable daily driver but might as well be made of paper, the struts, strut mounts, rear coils, ball jointed link kits and front control arms all break or wear out very quickly. Perhaps I think that by keeping the factory ECU I am keeping the factory reliability of the F2T. This could be misguided but the number of component failures I have read about with MS systems on cars is discouraging. Also hundreds of post by people running all kinds of different standalone engine management systems having to make changes to the programming under different atmospheric conditions, I will assume this is because the person that did the programming didn't do a good job but to me If someone has to pull over and connect a laptop to their car to keep driving it is a big FAIL.
Part of the reason I download and learn to program different management systems before I even consider buying them. The R4 software is a pain in the ass to work with, it is programmed in Milliseconds and so injector size, fuel pressure, duty cycle delivery and milliseconds to rpm must all be calculated before programming the controller but even then I am still guessing, I have no idea how many extra CC's of extra fuel I need going from 15 to 16psi and I highly doubt the CC requirements per extra PSI above that are linear. So far I have written dozens of base maps from 15 to 26psi at various % increments in the hope that one of them will actually work on the car once the system is installed. Plan to start with the richest one and then select one of the other maps based on A/F ratios.

After reading your post I thought about it and if I could fit the Speeduino in the factory F2T computers box, Remove all the factory ECU pins, unsolder them and run wires to where they need to be and extras outs on the factory ecu connector and use the factory harness adding wires and connectors to it if needed. Then if the Speeduino fails I can connect a factory ECU to the harness and keep driving.
Here I am only allowed to run SAE approved upgrades unless they fall in the grey area, You can lower your vehicle with coils that aren't sae approved as long as they meet the criterias. For engine management having the ECU reflashed is fine but having user (driver) variable control is not (stand alone), the grey area is piggy back I can drive a car on the street that is built for the race track as long as the changes don't effect the street drive-ability and piggy back systems that only operate beyond factory set-up whether fixed or user adjustable are permitted. Having a speeduino look like the factory ecu and run off the factory ECU harness would allow me to sneak past the rules. I carry copies of the "Modifying your vehicle" and "Modified Vehicles and Artistic Fabrication" regulations and rules in my cars for the most part the cops are okay but every couple years I get one that wants to do a roadside inspection and tries to request a safety inspection or take the car off the road just to be a prick, my mechanical knowledge and the fact I know the rules sends him packing.
For those who don't know the rules this can be a pain in the ass, one kid bought a Corrado VR6, passed safety inspection, had the car painted an nice blue and put shiny rims on the car, this caught the attention of a bored cop. The cop not only requested a safety inspection he took the car off the road, before this bone stock car could get another safety inspection he had to get it certified by a member of the Order of Engineers of Quebec and the waiting list for any member offering reasonable prices is long. The poor kid saved up his money to buy his "dream car" had it painted the color he always wanted and got to drive it for 2days. He would have had to sit on the car for almost a year and come up with cash for another car to drive in the mean time. He sold to car to someone in another province for less than he paid for it because it now needed a structural safety inspection before it could be used on the road again.

Some of the rules don't make any sense:
Installing bigger tires:
-The outside tire diameter must not be increased by more than 7.6cm (3in).
-The maximum tire diameter allowed is 89cm (35in).
-The tires at any time must not come into contact with the chassis or body of the vehicle.
(So far this makes sense).

Installing rims with a larger diameter:
-The outside diameter of the tire must be the same as that of the original tires.
(Wait what?)

So a factory MX6 comes with 205 60 r15 tires at a diameter of 24.7"
I am allowed to run 205 75 r15 tires at a diameter of 27.1"
Or 225 70 r15 tires at a diameter of 27.4"
But I can't run 225/50 r16 at a diameter of 24.9"
(WTF?)
The SAAQ believes that larger rims increase stopping distance because they are heavier therefore by maintaining overall wheel diameter braking distances should remain the same.
Regardless of physics and common sense to them running a 55lb wheel assembly with a 15inch rim and 27.7" tires will affect braking less than running a 35lb wheel assembly with a 16in rim and 24.9" tire.

--------------------------------------------

Back to Speeduino
Any links you have would be appreciated.
Everything at this link comes up as a white page:
Speeduino Manual
And most of my web browsers on most of my computers are no longer supported by
Github.com...

(windows XP 32 bit and 64 bit and windows 7 ultimate)
 

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Sure, you could probably put the speeduino board into the factory ecu housing if you get one that incorporates the atmega chip directly rather than uses the full MEGA board. The core4 boards from DIY-EFI are an example, there are others.
It depends on how you run the 8 injectors, and why you want 8 injectors in the first place. The boards do run 8 cylinder engines in batch mode. There are also some 8x8 boards available at present and the upcoming Dropbear Speeduino does 8x8.
Tunerstudio is able to be used without registering, you just don't get a few features such as the built in log viewer, tooth logging and auto tune. Certainly enough to see what you can do with it and do real tuning. Speeduino is fully open source and the source code is available off github, even some of the contributors have their modifications and extras available for use, testing and copying.
Winows XP is a lost cause and just should not be on the internet at all, even Windows 7 is a real risk, but you can at least install the latest Firefox browser on it, which should allow you to use the wiki and github.
 

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Discussion Starter #5
Also are you running the factory cluster and does everything work including check engine light?
Concealer404 once mentioned he prefers OBD2 (flash programmable ECU's) because it's easier to pull engine codes but it's just the opposite, to pull codes on the F2T I need a piece of wire to pull codes on the Mazda 3 I needed to buy an OBD2 scanner and still have to wait until I get home to pull the codes because I don't drive around with it in the car it will get stolen.

Can the Speeduino give issue warnings through the check engine light?
Or do you have to drive around with a Laptop computer in your car all the time?
 

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We don't have a check engine light in NZ, but I don't think so at present, it has been suggested I think. I have the Tach working with the speeduino, I just changed a resistor so that it would work with the 12V signal rather than the flyback high voltage from the coil. There are other methods to emulate the flyback voltages available. You can use the standard distributor and coil, the F2T spark is controlled by the ECU anyway and the speeduino does the same thing if set up that way. I changed mine to use coil near plug with 4 ls1 coils, just because I could. You can also use all of the normal sensors as well, after all, the car is already controlled by an ECU. The other gauges are just using the normal sensors. I only have the laptop in the car if I am tuning, otherwise I don't need it. Given that we don't have check engine lights then it is no loss not to have one. Just plug in if you think something is wrong.
 

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Discussion Starter #7
Sure, you could probably put the speeduino board into the factory ecu housing if you get one that incorporates the atmega chip directly rather than uses the full MEGA board.
It depends on how you run the 8 injectors, and why you want 8 injectors in the first place. The boards do run 8 cylinder engines in batch mode. There are also some 8x8 boards available at present and the upcoming Dropbear Speeduino does 8x8.
Tunerstudio is able to be used without registering, you just don't get a few features such as the built in log viewer, tooth logging and auto tune. Certainly enough to see what you can do with it and do real tuning. Speeduino is fully open source and the source code is available off github, even some of the contributors have their modifications and extras available for use, testing and copying.
Winows XP is a lost cause and just should not be on the internet at all, even Windows 7 is a real risk, but you can at least install the latest Firefox browser on it, which should allow you to use the wiki and github.
8 injectors because if I upgrade the fuel rail injectors and the speeduino fails for any reason I can't just plug the Factory ECU in and run the car, I would need to swap the injectors and on the 626 because of the intake port work and flange shaving the dynamic chamber would have to be pulled of to get the injectors out and the dynamic chamber to intake manifold was a pain in the ass to get to seal, the flange has been helicoiled but it so thin the rear drivers side snapped off when I torqued it down and I had to build a bracket to support and hold that bolt...

The XP I'm running on my main computer has been running since 2002 or 3,, I just cloned the hard drive to larger hard drives and changed the drivers needed when changing towers. Never had any issues with this computer and since microsoft ended support for XP long ago they stopped writing viruses, malware and spyware for windows XP.
Funny you should mention this, the laptop running Windows 7 I can use to run programs and such but firefox got so big and takes up so much memory that I was running a 2 year old version, somehow an update got through I rolled back to an older version but firefox still runs multiple tasks in task manager and makes it to slow to use on the internet, with the latest version installed if I try to run firefox it just freezes (dell latitude d620). This passed summer I asked my buddy with a computer shop to take a look at it, he told me it isn't worth it and he would re-purpose a drop off laptop replacement but he never did, the only thing I use the laptop for was watching netflix and connecting to Logworks on the Innovate wideband.
But I think I may have to bug him again.
 

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I would guess that you are running 8 injectors in 4 pairs, you could probably do that with speedy with semi sequential mode.
 

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I have been running piggy back controllers on my cars for years.
And have looked into many types and brands. They all seem to lack features (fuel piggyback controllers don't do timing and Timing controllers don't do fuel) and they all cost too much. With the exception of some model specific units like URD additional injector and timing conditioner for Toyota's (435$) or motorcycle devices like Daytona twin tec controllers (+- 250$).

Discussing fuel control with UncleDirrt I decided to look for anything new on the market ...
UncleDirrt decided on the SDS XIC, it is the 2nd generation of the SDS EIC I have been using.
The XIC has been around for about 20years now, it has had some changes over the years and has a few neat features.
It has barometric compensation setting and it can monitor a 0-5V wideband signal and give a warning or ad 25% fuel compensation when reading lean, It can also operated and regulate a boost control solenoid valve.

But it does not run off the wideband signal, it still uses fixed maps based on set-point and fuel gain, rpm and Map pressure.
The XIC is also fairly expensive.

Ripping off and simplifying the XIC lean warning set-up:
I like the idea of lean condition boost cut and decided to look at Innovate LC-1 settings to see if I could program one of the analog outputs to only put out voltage at a certain A/F, say 0V below 11A/f and only put out voltage above 11 A/F. Using a pressure switch to control the analog output to only send a signal above 25psi (water meth boost level) to a relay that cuts power to the water meth boost solenoid if A/F's go above 11. This is not possible on my current set-up because both analog outputs are used (Narrow band to ecu and DB gauge), however is possible with the XD-16 gauge that uses the LC-1 stereo port to give A/F readings, the LC1 Stereo port is not affected by changing analog output settings. This would allow for a water meth injection system failure failsafe by monitoring it's A/F results instead of it's cc per minute flow under operation. In the advanced analog output settings the response speed may need to be changed and the Error output voltage should be set to 5V.

The following set up can be used as a fail safe for anyone running extra fuel and higher boost than the factory ecu and injectors will run at (above 15psi). This requires using the serial out port to display Air Fuel readings or using MTX series gauge/controllers.
View attachment 13558

But honestly I am getting tired of adding relay's, pressure switches, toggle switches and LED warning lights to my build.
Although I like the idea of an A/F monitoring failsafe for the water/methanol injection system more than running an alcohol resistant, high pressure flow sensor/meter and running an arduino type controller to monitor and operate a boost cut failsafe. I think the next idea is better.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I think it is possible to build and to program piggyback stand alone.
A controller that can be used by anyone adding or upgrading a turbo on a single coil vehicle.
A simple system that controls injectors based on air fuel ratio's instead of fixed maps based on RPM and manifold pressure.
A controller that also pulls timing (advancing timing would be to complex) and allows for a quick switch 2nd map for water/methanol injection or Nitrous Oxide or...

The layout and wiring would be simple:
View attachment 13556

-The controller would use coil signal (rpm) and map sensor voltage to chart a map and chase the 0-5V wideband signal with injector pulse milliseconds.
-Wideband signal loss failsafes would be selectable. 1- Cut boost and stop operation. 2- Locked in millisecond injector map with a rich correction factor selected in 0.5% increments.
-Lean condition and knock condition failsafes would be to cut boost or pull timing or run an enrichment map.
-The controller would interrupt the coil pulse signal wire going to the coil and run a bypass relay, if the system has an error or shuts down Coil pulse goes straight from ECU to Coil and boost is cut to wastegate only psi.
-Auxiliary imputs would be used to switch maps for different grades of fuel or water meth or Nitrous ... sending a 12V or Ground signal to the auxiliary input to switch maps (toggle switch, water injection on signal or Nitrous trigger switch...) .
-Timing would be pulled by 1* increments when selected and have a programmable knock Lean compensation map.

User interface should be simple, one chart for fuel and timing, fuel is represented in A/F ratio and timing in -degrees.
View attachment 13557
No entry would mean no action.
The controller would run in closed loop only mode when calibrating (o2 signal only) and write an open loop milli second pulse for the injectors. Once calibrated the unit would run based on the open loop map and use close loop wideband signal to correct the map.
By using a wideband signal to control fueling there is no need for barometric or temperature compensations to fueling.

I am looking for suggestions on opened source tuning software and affordable devices they will work with.
 

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Discussion Starter #10
We don't have a check engine light in NZ, but I don't think so at present, it has been suggested I think. I have the Tach working with the speeduino, I just changed a resistor so that it would work with the 12V signal rather than the flyback high voltage from the coil. There are other methods to emulate the flyback voltages available. You can use the standard distributor and coil, the F2T spark is controlled by the ECU anyway and the speeduino does the same thing if set up that way. I changed mine to use coil near plug with 4 ls1 coils, just because I could. You can also use all of the normal sensors as well, after all, the car is already controlled by an ECU. The other gauges are just using the normal sensors. I only have the laptop in the car if I am tuning, otherwise I don't need it. Given that we don't have check engine lights then it is no loss not to have one. Just plug in if you think something is wrong.
Are you saying that if running the factory distributor and coil the tack can continue using the high voltage flyback signal from the coil.
Here the check engine light is a must, I guess if your car doesn't come with one than it would pass safety but if it's on the dash it has to light up when you turn the key and turn off when the car is running.

For the injectors I was thinking of running 4 in the fuel rail and 4 in the charge pipe, the 4 charge pipe injectors would only come on above a certain boost. So the fuel rail would be batch fired 2X2 requiring 2 injector drivers and the 4 charge pipe injectors would all batch fire together off one or two injector drivers. I like the idea of having the accuracy of 4 fuel rail intake injectors for regular driving and having injectors in the charge pipe cooling high boost air, blending both temperate and mixture of fuel and air resulting in cooler air and warmer gas and better combustion.
The 626 is running the factory intercooler with 2.5" fittings welded to it. I have 3 larger intercoolers I could run but would rather continue running the modified factory intercooler.

Are you telling me the speeduino doesn't have a status light or error warning light alert capability, that's all it would take for a check engine light to be operated. I mean tunerstudio or any management program is monitoring feedback signals from all sorts of sensors and devices it should have the ability to alert the driver of there are any failed, out of calibration or irrational signals from the sensor feedback just like a primitive F2 ECU does.
Shouldn't everyone have such a warning light? required or not. it should be called a check system light, really it has nothing to do with the engine, It only alerts you to signals.

Next speeduino question, the speeduino or tunerstudio and MV monitor engine coolant temp sensor signal and possibly oil pressure sensor or the oil pressure switch signal can anything be programmed to happen if signal high points or low points are exceeded ?
Can a fuel cut/rpm limit be set if A/F's, EGT's, IAT's, Map pressure (boost), Coolant temp, knock... go beyond a certain point protecting the engine from damage ?
If so I would be really tempted to run a Speeduino.
Until now the only advantages I saw from standalone would be to keep the engine in closed loop to 3500rpm in 5th gear and raising redline to 6500 or 6550rpm in all gears.
Fueling with the EIC is perfect and factory timing works great up to 21psi and at higher boost with Water injection the factory timing works well, I would like to pull a couple degrees for added insurance.


Side note: aside from perhaps more accuracy when dialing in timing what power gains are their from individual coil packs vs running a distributor and wires, I have changed a lot of individual spark plug coils over the years but very few individual coils and distributors, usually it was wiring or leads or plugs, corrosion... and less costly to repair than replacing a coil pack.
Because of my prejudice, based on only real world reliability issues (4x the coils = 4X the potential coil failure) I never researched the benefits of coil packs or wasted spark set-ups. But I also notice that the most powerful V8's still run distributor and wire set-up's. So I never planned on running coil packs or wasted spark and never looked into why people do.

Anyway thanks for the info, all this stuff can be looked up but you know what it's can be like searching, for example extra injector controllers: A full day thorough search and you might be able to list every brand and model of extra injector controller made for cars, planes and motorcycles. How many days to research each one, it's functions, reliability and reviews (often the least informative) I have read "Best unit available" which is a bold statement on one motorcycle sales site I found more than 20 brands and some make 40-50 different models... Just writing a review bassed on the options and prices of EIC/IAC's available by the brands available on one site would be a daunting task, testing each one for function and reliability would take many years. On the same note when I read reviews like " doesn't work" " It failed instantly" "cheaply built" "Bad customer support" alarm bells are ringing Willie and I look into these reviews.
I have found many different brands of Stand alone engine management brands, looking into each one has been a free time killer for many years of my life, some brands I do a lot of reading on others don't require much digging to reach a conclusion about, for example. Syvecs Powertrain control, Conclusion: Possibly extremely good engine management and if you want to spend more on purchasing engine management and it's supporting components (not including cost of installation and tuning) than the rest of the entire build and cars cost. You should look into Syvecs.
 

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Yes, the standard tach would just run the way it is now, the igniter would just be fired by the speedy rather than the factory ECU in exactly the same way.
There are several advantages to coil per plug, but I really did it mainly for the heck of it, make it more modern and I could easily do it. I have built a complete new engine harness and have added in 5V fuel pressure and oil pressure transducers for gauges.
A check engine light would be kind of nice to have, but never having had one it isn't something I miss. Especially as I can just plug in and see everything directly if I need to, being an ex mechanic I tend to notice if something isn't right. It seems easy enough to have a fake check engine light to pass inspection, I can think of a way and I am pretty sure that I have come across methods in my travels across the internet. You would have to ask in the forum or Slack if speedy can do some sort of check light warning. Also be easy enough to add an Arduino reading the data from speedy and have that run a check engine light, I do something similar to run a small display panel with a few gauges on it.
Yes, there are engine protections already in the firmware, and programmable actions as well. If you download the free tunerstudio and the Speeduino firmware and have a look at what is there. Speeduino documentation is not great at this point, but has the basics on what and how.
What draws me to Speeduino is the open nature of it, everything is there to see and play around with. You can even make changes and additions and have them added to the official firmware if it meets a general need.
While it has been a journey with several frustrations working with the Speeduino, I enjoy the challenge and hands on experience and am happy with what I have at the moment. Still more tuning to go for the upper end but the car is running great, better than the standard ECU.
Maybe I should put up a thread with what I have done with my MX6 so far.
 
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