Mazda MX-6 Forum banner

1 - 16 of 16 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
74 Posts
Discussion Starter · #1 ·
hey guys I'm back lol. Pretty sure I'm experiencing spark blow out on my car. Just wondering which route to go first. If I set my boost over about 17psi it will buck and die out at wot when it hits full boost. I bought some new plugs a while ago and figured I would try gapping down to .039. But when I checked the gap with a feeler gauge it seemed like they were already around there. Feeler gauge was snug going in anyways. Am I at the point where I need upgraded coil\ignition? Is there something else I should be looking at? BTW the car has 360lph fuel pump with aeromotive regulator, 3" exhaust, modified stock exhaust manifold with external wastegate 18g turbo and still running stock intercooler with custom piping.(really want to upgrade intercooler and piping soon) thanks in advance boys!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
16 Posts
Hey there! That exactly what it sounds like when that happens or you have a boost leak somewhere in the system. I would replace your wires with NGK wires and gap your plugs at .035 and see if it still does it.

If it still does I would make a boost leak checker out of a coupler and a PVC pipe plug and an air fitting and spray soapy water around your piping and couplers and see if you have some type of leak.
The throttle body boots on these cars are notorious for tearing or cracking. Hard to find now too since the car is 30 years old.

Keep us posted.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
74 Posts
Discussion Starter · #3 ·
Already have almost new ngk wires and definitely no boost leaks. All the turbo piping is newer and custom. I can try gapping down to .035 I thought that would be a good place to start as well. Thanks for the reply I will post back the result.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,446 Posts
hey guys I'm back lol. Pretty sure I'm experiencing spark blow out on my car. Just wondering which route to go first. If I set my boost over about 17psi it will buck and die out at wot when it hits full boost. I bought some new plugs a while ago and figured I would try gapping down to .039. But when I checked the gap with a feeler gauge it seemed like they were already around there. Feeler gauge was snug going in anyways. Am I at the point where I need upgraded coil\ignition? Is there something else I should be looking at? BTW the car has 360lph fuel pump with aeromotive regulator, 3" exhaust, modified stock exhaust manifold with external wastegate 18g turbo and still running stock intercooler with custom piping.(really want to upgrade intercooler and piping soon) thanks in advance boys!
Are you running NGK V-groove plugs. Like 92PGT said you should run .035" Gap and NGK wires.
Mitsu 18G is rated to flow 41lb/min, Mitsu turbo's have big compressor wheels and small housings, they generate lots of heat at higher boosts, the 18G's limit seems to be 25psi.

You are on a factory intercooler. Is the intercooler getting close to heat soaked at 17psi and causing issues above that?

My experience with spark blow out on the F2T is Zero, I have never experienced it on any of my cars at any boost on stock ignition. Big 16G (36lb/min) 22psi, T3 45trim (21lb/min) 27psi, T3 60trim (34lb/min) 30psi... I have experience missfire from bad wires, missing grounds, cracked spark plugs, failing rotor components...

Cylinder pressure is related to air volume (CFM) not boost pressure, so a T04E flowing 400CFM @ 15psi will have higher cylinder pressure than a T04B flowing 350CFM @ 25psi.

That said there is no way the 18G is flowing more CFM at 17psi than the other turbos did at higher boost. Also I think the actual turbos flow on the car is regulated by the engine and pipes, the Big 16G ran stock pipes and intercooler + 3" exhaust, the 45trim ran 2.5" pipes and larger intercooler +2.5" exhaust and 2.5" exhaust cutout. The 45trim made more power at 22psi than the 16G. So HP per PSI is regulated by the volume of air that can get to the engine and how much air the engine can consume. Once the pump is bigger than the requirements 1psi though a 1" pipe will flow the same amount of air no matter how much bigger the pump is, the only way to increase CFM delivery is to increase the pressure (more psi) .

All this to say I am not sure you are experiencing spark blow out.
The first thing you should do is add an engine ground from the body to the engine or battery to the engine. Engine grounds are the other half of the ignition path, the ground flow must match the spark generated.
Also check the ground connector next to the matter, white plastic with a 4 or more black (with goldish blotches) ground wires running to it, held to the car with a 10mm (m6) bolt. It grounds the igniter.

------------------------------------------------------------------
The elephant under the hood:

You mentioned 17psi, 18G turbo, external waste gate, 3" exhaust, 360lph rated fuel pump and aeromotive fuel pressure regulator.
Where is your fuel management? Wideband sensor and readings?
If you are using a 1:1 fuel pressure regulator you basically have a factory fuel system with increased fuel delivery potential.


I didn't look up all the functionality of the aeromotive FPR but all the FPR's I have worked with seem to default to 40psi at 0 in/hg vacuum unless base pressure is set above 40psi then at 0 in/hg it is at base set pressure.
Under boost the 1:1 FPR raises rail pressure by 1 psi for every psi turbo boost to allow the injectors to flow the same amount of fuel at the same duty cycle under higher manifold pressure.
With a larger pump and adjustable 1:1 FPR fuel delivery is pretty much stock because the only thing controlling the injectors is the AFM (above 3000rpm under boost).

I think you are leaning out, crossing from the point of full injector supply to insufficient fuel supply, if so don't find the half way point between the two.
If you don't have a wideband you shouldn't be going past 15psi, without knowing exhaust air / fuel ratios trying to tune with a FMU, extra injector controller or engine management is all just guessing.
If you do have a wideband you should have mentioned it and your A/F's bellow 17psi and at 17psi in your post.

With all the upgrade turbo's I ran one thing remained constant I set the extra injectors to come on above 15psi on 2.5" intercooler pipes, so above 15psi the factory fuel system runs lean.
At a certain point in the AFM flap travel the injectors are at max factory duty cycle, above that point fuel management is necessary. That point can vary depending on air flow modifications and engine VE.

The fact that the F2T is factory turbocharged makes regulating fuel using fuel rail pressure difficult because no extra fuel is needed from Vacuum to 15psi.

The factory fuel pressure is listed from 34 - 40 psi
The factory fuel pressure regulator raise 1psi fuel pressure to 1spi boost pressure so the injectors always perform as though they had 34-40 psi rail pressure at atmosphere manifold pressure.
The factory injectors are rated to flow 73-90cc /15 seconds = 292 - 360cc /minute

292cc @ 40 psi = 295.6cc @ 41 psi = 3.6cc per psi
326cc @ 40 psi = 330cc @ 41 psi = 4cc per psi
360cc @ 40 psi = 364.5cc @ 41 psi = 4.5cc per psi

If you are going to regulate extra fuel pressure to run higher boost you need fuel pressure to be 56 psi @ 16psi and have fuel rail pressure to be 58psi or higher @ 17psi.

You would need something like the MaxG motorsport 2025 VRG OE adjustable, variable rate fuel management unit for factory turbo/supercharged vehicles running factory ECU and injectors.
It gets installed after the 1:1 fuel pressure regulator and allows the starting point (from 10in/hg up to X psi) to be dialed in.
This allows "factory" fuel rail pressure under idle, cruise and boost until more fuel is required at and above that boost (in your case 17psi).

Variable Rate of Gain Fuel Pressure Regulator (FMU or Rising Rate Regulator)

Details are found in the installation instructions:
Variable Rate of Gain Fuel Pressure Regulator (FMU or Rising Rate Regulator)

I am sure there are other products and ways to set-up fuel management without increasing fuel delivery when you don't need it.

Other options are an electronic extra injector controller or a water / meth injection kit.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
74 Posts
Discussion Starter · #5 ·
Are you running NGK V-groove plugs. Like 92PGT said you should run .035" Gap and NGK wires.
Mitsu 18G is rated to flow 41lb/min, Mitsu turbo's have big compressor wheels and small housings, they generate lots of heat at higher boosts, the 18G's limit seems to be 25psi.

You are on a factory intercooler. Is the intercooler getting close to heat soaked at 17psi and causing issues above that?

My experience with spark blow out on the F2T is Zero, I have never experienced it on any of my cars at any boost on stock ignition. Big 16G (36lb/min) 22psi, T3 45trim (21lb/min) 27psi, T3 60trim (34lb/min) 30psi... I have experience missfire from bad wires, missing grounds, cracked spark plugs, failing rotor components...

Cylinder pressure is related to air volume (CFM) not boost pressure, so a T04E flowing 400CFM @ 15psi will have higher cylinder pressure than a T04B flowing 350CFM @ 25psi.

That said there is no way the 18G is flowing more CFM at 17psi than the other turbos did at higher boost. Also I think the actual turbos flow on the car is regulated by the engine and pipes, the Big 16G ran stock pipes and intercooler + 3" exhaust, the 45trim ran 2.5" pipes and larger intercooler +2.5" exhaust and 2.5" exhaust cutout. The 45trim made more power at 22psi than the 16G. So HP per PSI is regulated by the volume of air that can get to the engine and how much air the engine can consume. Once the pump is bigger than the requirements 1psi though a 1" pipe will flow the same amount of air no matter how much bigger the pump is, the only way to increase CFM delivery is to increase the pressure (more psi) .

All this to say I am not sure you are experiencing spark blow out.
The first thing you should do is add an engine ground from the body to the engine or battery to the engine. Engine grounds are the other half of the ignition path, the ground flow must match the spark generated.
Also check the ground connector next to the matter, white plastic with a 4 or more black (with goldish blotches) ground wires running to it, held to the car with a 10mm (m6) bolt. It grounds the igniter.

------------------------------------------------------------------
The elephant under the hood:

You mentioned 17psi, 18G turbo, external waste gate, 3" exhaust, 360lph rated fuel pump and aeromotive fuel pressure regulator.
Where is your fuel management? Wideband sensor and readings?
If you are using a 1:1 fuel pressure regulator you basically have a factory fuel system with increased fuel delivery potential.


I didn't look up all the functionality of the aeromotive FPR but all the FPR's I have worked with seem to default to 40psi at 0 in/hg vacuum unless base pressure is set above 40psi then at 0 in/hg it is at base set pressure.
Under boost the 1:1 FPR raises rail pressure by 1 psi for every psi turbo boost to allow the injectors to flow the same amount of fuel at the same duty cycle under higher manifold pressure.
With a larger pump and adjustable 1:1 FPR fuel delivery is pretty much stock because the only thing controlling the injectors is the AFM (above 3000rpm under boost).

I think you are leaning out, crossing from the point of full injector supply to insufficient fuel supply, if so don't find the half way point between the two.
If you don't have a wideband you shouldn't be going past 15psi, without knowing exhaust air / fuel ratios trying to tune with a FMU, extra injector controller or engine management is all just guessing.
If you do have a wideband you should have mentioned it and your A/F's bellow 17psi and at 17psi in your post.

With all the upgrade turbo's I ran one thing remained constant I set the extra injectors to come on above 15psi on 2.5" intercooler pipes, so above 15psi the factory fuel system runs lean.
At a certain point in the AFM flap travel the injectors are at max factory duty cycle, above that point fuel management is necessary. That point can vary depending on air flow modifications and engine VE.

The fact that the F2T is factory turbocharged makes regulating fuel using fuel rail pressure difficult because no extra fuel is needed from Vacuum to 15psi.

The factory fuel pressure is listed from 34 - 40 psi
The factory fuel pressure regulator raise 1psi fuel pressure to 1spi boost pressure so the injectors always perform as though they had 34-40 psi rail pressure at atmosphere manifold pressure.
The factory injectors are rated to flow 73-90cc /15 seconds = 292 - 360cc /minute

292cc @ 40 psi = 295.6cc @ 41 psi = 3.6cc per psi
326cc @ 40 psi = 330cc @ 41 psi = 4cc per psi
360cc @ 40 psi = 364.5cc @ 41 psi = 4.5cc per psi

If you are going to regulate extra fuel pressure to run higher boost you need fuel pressure to be 56 psi @ 16psi and have fuel rail pressure to be 58psi or higher @ 17psi.

You would need something like the MaxG motorsport 2025 VRG OE adjustable, variable rate fuel management unit for factory turbo/supercharged vehicles running factory ECU and injectors.
It gets installed after the 1:1 fuel pressure regulator and allows the starting point (from 10in/hg up to X psi) to be dialed in.
This allows "factory" fuel rail pressure under idle, cruise and boost until more fuel is required at and above that boost (in your case 17psi).

Variable Rate of Gain Fuel Pressure Regulator (FMU or Rising Rate Regulator)

Details are found in the installation instructions:
Variable Rate of Gain Fuel Pressure Regulator (FMU or Rising Rate Regulator)

I am sure there are other products and ways to set-up fuel management without increasing fuel delivery when you don't need it.

Other options are an electronic extra injector controller or a water / meth injection kit.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
74 Posts
Discussion Starter · #6 ·
Hey carnage thanks for the detailed and knowledgeable reply as always. So ngk wires yes. Ngk plugs but I will have to check what type. Definitely gapped at .039. I have a aem wideband but my sensor is f'ed right now so its bouncing around. When it was working my af were good around 14-15 psi it was rich if anything. Its only over 17 that it will do this. Cap and rotor new. Ground cable is huge i ditched the dactory one a while ago. That shitty plastic ground terminal is long gone as well. Also this is a greddy 18g large compressor housing not the same as Mitsubishi 18g. So ya what you said about the fuel system being stock still i get that but I can tell you that it made a huge difference in power with the new pump and regulator more noticeable at higher boost like around 15psi. Im never going to get to the point of engine management and injectors in this car its just a nostalgic summer toy. It just seems to me for the car to run fine at 16 psi and then completely cut out at 18psi its not piping and fuel delivery in My opinion. regulator is 1:1 idle psi is 40psi if I remember correct. I've seen guys run this regulator on 600hp cars so I think it's probably fine for this application. I have a sr20 friend who's car would do the exact same thing as mine and changed the gap and problem solved...who knows but I will let you know soon once I have a chance to re gap the plugs. Thanks again!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,446 Posts
NGK V Groove ZFR6F-11 or ZFR7F-11 (colder plug).

From what you just wrote I am 99.99% sure you are leaning the engine out.
You have no fuel management.
A 1:1 fuel pressure regulator is what the car had originally, you replaced it with a 1:1 fuel pressure regulator.
The fuel pressure regulator controls the amount of fuel returning to the tank.

Your pump is 360lph the factory pumps minimum spec is 220cc/10 seconds (X 6= cc/min X 60 = cc/hour Divided by 1000 = Liter Per Hour) 79.2lph minimum. So lets say 80lph.
Your 360lph pump flows 4.5 X the fuel of the factory pump.
To maintain 40psi fuel rail pressure your aeromotive regulator has to allow all the extra fuel the 360lph pump flows back in the tank. With 4.5 times the fuel delivery at 40 psi the fuel has to travel 4.5 times faster through the fuel system.
This means the 360lph can maintain set fuel rail pressure at 4.5 times the fuel demand and the Aeromotive regulator can handle any extra fuel back that needs to go back to the tank.

1:1 fuel pressure regulator: In a pressurized environment pressures cancel each other out.
If you have a tire with 20psi pressure and an air tank with 20psi pressure in it and you connect the tank to the tire nothing happens the tank stays at 20spi and so does the tire.
So at 20psi turbo boost and 60psi fuel rail pressure you get 40psi injector operation.
The injector at 100% duty cycle at 0 psi boost and 40psi rail pressure = 326 cc injection +-
The injector at 100% duty cycle at 20 psi boost and 60psi rail pressure = 326 cc injection +-
-Your fuel system is set-up to have the injectors operate at 40psi fuel pressure under all boost pressures.
-Your injectors have a maximum fuel flow at 40psi rail pressure and 100% duty cycle.
-Your ECU doesn't have the ability to increase duty cycle beyond it's max setting no matter the demand.
-Your pump and regulator are up to the task of supplying all the fuel necessary to supply the factory injectors 40psi operating fuel pressure at full duty cycle (from your description the factory pump and regulator couldn't) That's your different power at 15psi over the stock system.

Your fuel set-up give all the fuel and pressure necessary to allow the factory injectors to perform at peak efficiency @ 40 psi throughout their duty cycle (the rail always has enough fuel in it).

*Once you run enough boost to require all the fuel delivered by the injectors at 100% duty cycle and 40psi rail pressure (say 330cc per injector) you can't boost any higher without somehow increasing fuel delivery.
**Where is the extra fuel past 330cc per injector coming from on your set-up?

By reducing gap on your plugs you are advancing timing a tiny amount which requires a tiny amount more fuel at peak demand.
You don't want to have lean missfire detonation on the engine it will blow a hole in the piston, damage the cylinder wall and head. Once the head gets shaved it increases the engine compression by reducing the combustion chamber size so 7.8:1 becomes 7.8:0.95 or less (but 1 is always 1 so it would read as 8.19:1 compression) and the engine will never make as much power without more fuel than before to counter fixed timing and higher compression...

The FMU I mentioned would go after your aeromotive fuel pressure regulator in the fuel system and not replace it.

Without fuel management or engine management or extra injectors or larger injectors. Without supplying more fuel to the engine at higher boost on you nostalgic summer toy you don't get to boost 18psi with your 18G turbo. (If you don't eat yer meat you can't have any pudding, how can you have any pudding if you don't eat yer meat).
If you don't fix the fuel you can run higher boost, how can you run higher boost if you don't fix your fuel.

Please get your wideband working properly before trying to increase boost. That isn't the first AEM that's signal is bouncing around. Innovate motorsport sensors are more durable, reliable and have a broader read range.

Do yourself a favor and take what I am telling you as fact until you can disprove it with facts, to attempt to prove or disprove it with your engine is a bad idea. Call a really good tuner shop and ask them, join an engine management forum and ask the question there.
I say you are basically experiencing fuel cut there isn't enough fuel in the cylinder to ignite the air charge, you don't want to find the point at lower boost (say 17.2 psi) this begins to happen in 4th at higher rpm running the unsafe high side of lean and tip too far because that's the end of the engine.
Every single engine is tuned by giving it too much fuel and leaning it out until it's right.
You are tuning by turning up the boost until you find the limit of the fuel delivery, you don't want to do that. Even if it could be done safely running the set-up there is dangerous, A/F ratio's change depending on air temp, moisture and barometric pressure.

If I am wrong I am sorry.
If I am right you will be really sorry.
Don't spend 10$ to save 1$. Fuel management will cost 300$ or less and allow you to run more boost, make more power and enjoy every penny it costs. Swapping the engine cost more than 300$ and puts you right back where you started, boost limited to fuel delivery, only result being you will know how much boost not to run an expensive and pointless lesson.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Mad Mx6

·
Registered
Joined
·
74 Posts
Discussion Starter · #8 ·
I think I came off wrong here a bit lol. I agree with you about the lean condition being a factor or a problem with my car. Maybe just from the feel of the car it feels more like fuel cut and it back fires as well when this happens though. I really want to get my wideband working so I can know for sure how much boosts I can run max and I'm fine with that. I've had this setup on the car for years now and I have the head off the car a while back and everything was looking good still. That being said that was at 15-17psi. Daily driven hard most of the time. I got a quote for haltec stand alone for $2500 installed minimum. What do you mean by $300 for ecu management? I know you are a guru with these cars lol. Let me ask this a different way... if you were me, would you just keep the boost turned down around 14-15 psi and enjoy the car like that and be happy or what would you do next to this car to get a bit more potential out of it? If anything? Thanks
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,446 Posts
Please stop trying to run 18psi, spark blow out doesn't happen on all cylinders at once it will start as a missfire and get worse as rpm's rise.
You say it feels like fuel cut and the car backfires, That is going extra lean so lean their isn't enough fuel to ignite the charge thankfully. Like is say if you find the point at lower boost that your running to lean but ignite the charge the engine is done.
The backfiring is the 100% injector delivery that didn't burn at all in the engine burning of in the exhaust.
Turbo's aren't linear as that they flow their best at a certain CFM so you could be finding the sweet spot in the turbos flow efficiency range. Hence the expression the turbo really comes to life above X psi.
And gaping down the plugs could have the undesirable effect of igniting that extra lean charge and blowing the engine.

Fuel management for 300$ not ECU management.
Any one of these will give you the "fuel" you need to allow more boost safely:

-The FMU I linked is 250$ US (but I am sure you can find an equivalent unit at better price).

-Devils own Meth injection customizable basic tuner kit 290.95$ US
-Snow performance methanol injection kit 303.15$ US
Snow Performance Methanol Injection Kit

Split second AIC1-G2H gauge pressure, 2Hi Z additional Injector Controller 296$ US
AIC1-G2H Gauge Pressure, 2 Hi Z Additional Injector Controller |

-------------------------------
About me.
Well I have learned a lot of lessons with these cars the hard way but I have a garage and storage full of spare blocks and transmissions and still have 10 mx6/626 cars. So if I blow something up I swap it, many would move on to a different car because parts aren't available.

With the 88 626 GT I am rebuilding originally the wideband sensor got damaged during installation, the wideband gave proper readings except at WOT it read 21 a/f, also the Haltec extra injector controller I bought used didn't work properly.
Innovate though the issue with the wideband was the turbine housing.
For 2 years I ran 15psi boost on a T3 45trim, I didn't really enjoy the car because it was too slow but it was meant to be a budget build. At no time however did I want to or attempt to run more boost (255lph pump, adjustable regulator) on the "stock fuel system" because risking the engine for 1 or 2 more psi isn't worth it and not because I don't want to do an engine swap but because 20 more hp isn't even worth sneezing at, a little less slow isn't worth the effort.

But hey I am crazy and despite the fact I build these cars for myself I believe if you floor your car it should shock people that it accelerates so fast, maybe I'm self conscious or too aware but just because I enjoy something doesn't mean I will do it if I look like an idiot doing it. Like a kid in a bone stock N/A 1.6L whatever (Civic) puts an exhaust and cold air intake on and thinks it's fast and drives it around like a race car looking like a fool. Or dancing, I always block out the music when I watch people dance and less than 1 in a thousand people can actually dance the rest look stupid and so I don't dance. Or spandex, I would make spandex pants illegal because I would rather guess what a hot girls ass looks like than know what a fat girls ass looks like. (Hey asshole your going way off topic here).

Back on topic.
If I where you:

If the current set-up was all I had to work with I would run 14-15psi and not enjoy it.

(me as me without any mod budget) I would probably try using a second 30$ ebay fuel pressure regulator and a normally closed solenoid valve and 10$ adjustable Chinese pressure switch and a normally closed relay.
After the aeromotive regulator on the return hose I would use a brass T and divide the rubber return hose into 2 hoses, one would run to the normally closed solenoid valve and one would run to the 2nd Fuel pressure regulator then to another T and to the fuel tank return line on the firewall, I would set it up so the Normally Closed solenoid valve was powered opened buy the Normally closed relay when the car is started and set the pressure switch to turn off the relay at 15psi, I would adjust the cheap FPR to run 10 or 15 psi over the aeromotive FPR.
When the car is started and driving return fuel would pass through the normally closed solenoid and fuel rail pressure would be normal, at 15psi the solenoid closes and the 2nd FPR controls fuel rail pressure.
13542


This fuel set-up would be specific to one boost point above 15psi so would work well with a second stage boost set up.
Rail pressure would be set to handle that boost (say 21psi) but would run rich at anything lower than that boost so stage 2 would be 6 more psi fixed...
The pros:
-I have most of these parts already so it wouldn't cost much.
-Allow the set-up to run more than 16-17 psi safely.
-Allows factory A/F's at idle cruise and low boost.
-Can be dialed in to run proper A/F's at X Boost.
-Normally closed solenoid valves fail closed, so if, the relay, the pressure switch, solenoid valve... fails the engine goes rich, you just have to pull over, turn the engine off, jump the fuel pump jumper and turn down the 2nd FPR until the pressure is 40 psi and only boost 15psi after that.

The cons:
-Bunch of cheap parts,
-Chance of part failure,
-Once installed and a part does fail do you replace it with another cheap part or one of better quality (in for a penny in for a pound).
-Can only be adjusted to deliver enough fuel for a specific Boost.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Me as you with your car:
I would think I invested good money on a quality fuel pump and FPR, I would think this is the foundation to making power, I spent money on making the fuel available now I need to add fuel management (I would definitely expect more from the money spent on pump and fpr than a different in top end at 15psi).

Of the 3 ways to control fuel FMU, Extra Injectors, Water Meth.
I would not waste money on an FMU (and yes I made a diagram of a makeshift FMU). It is somewhat versatile and the easiest to install but because it's close to the price of the other two it is definitely not worth the money for the function.

Between water/meth and Injector controller, that is a real tough decision.
The injector controller is more versatile, once dialed in you can run proper A/F's at any boost above factory injector limits up to factory timing limits (21-22psi).
Water-Meth can make more power, it will allow boost beyond factory timing limits, increases octane rating but is also a fuel source however without an expensive progressive kit like the makeshift FMU, jets/misting nozzles are sized to boost setting, you can have multiple stages of boost running multiple stages of water meth (solenoid valve, pressure switch, jet), but again less versatile than the extra injector controller.

So for me the next step on your build would be the extra injector controller.
Far more versatile and precise than the FMU and once maxed out, simply upgrade the 2 injectors and remap. This will allow you to safely run 6 or 7 psi over the 15psi you are safely running now. Because it's a large turbo this will get you into the peak efficiency of the turbo. Suddenly 1 extra psi will feel like 30 more HP because the turbo is compressing more air volume per psi. You can be running 15psi and making 150 boost hp or 10hp per psi but suddenly at 20psi the turbo will make about 12 hp per psi and 240 boost hp (comes to life).
This won't allow you to get a bit of extra performance out of the car, this will allow you to make all the extra performance possible on your set-up with factory timing and pump gas. You should be able to get 80 to 100 more ft lb torque with an extra injector controller.

The one I linked operates from 0-26psi, runs 2 High impedance injectors (any CC) is computer programmed to come on a the boost you want and deliver the fuel you want up to 26psi. The can be set to pulse fire (every other rpm) or batch fired (so 2 extra factory F2T injectors can deliver as much fuel as the ECU and 4 factory fuel rail injectors).
This would allow the car to run as much power as you'd realistically want to on a regular basis. The extra fuel before the throttle body cools the charge a lot more than the factory injectors at the valve ports.

The final step would be water/meth and another stage of boost properly matched (jet to boost), triggered by a button and used in cases of emergency (like when wanting to go faster or when starting to loose a race).

Big Turbo, Big exhaust, External wastegate, Big fuel pump, adjustable FPR to manage big pump, boost cut removed...
The CUP
Right now your sitting at the table staring at it, it's empty but you know something good is coming.

Extra fuel injector controller.
The SUNDAY
This is when you get to enjoy the actual benefits of all the work done so far within the limits of pump gas and factory timing.

Water/Methanol injection.
The CHERRY ON TOP.
Allows for way more boost than fuel will allow on factory timing while putting the engine at less risk of pre ignition/detonation than at lower boosts without meth (Drastically cooled charge air, cooler burning combustion, slower burning combustion all at higher boost).
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
74 Posts
Discussion Starter · #10 ·
Ok so I'm going to assume at this point spark blow out is not my issue lol. Moving forward with extra injector controller... so the controller you mentioned adds 2 injectors? What injectors would you recommend using and is there a good or proper location to install them in the charge piping? Will I just need 2 bungs welded in for this right? Maybe if you could elaborate on that a bit. I read on the greddy website that my turbo comes into efficiency at 21psi so if I could get to that point safely that would be crazy. What hp do you think I could be making at that point? I am just going to buy new wideband because the price of the new sensor is almost as much as a whole new wideband. Thanks for the info I know you put a lot of time into your responses I appreciate that
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,446 Posts
You would need:
-The extra injector controller.
-2X extra high impedance injectors.
-2X weld on injector bungs with 5/16" barbed fittings.
-2X 5/16" barbed T connector.
-5/16" fuel line screw on hose clamps X8.
-5/16" high pressure fuel line.

Install the Bungs on the charge pipe before the throttle body angled with the direction of air flow (like the factory injectors), put them in a position the won't come into contact with anything. (brake master, coil...).

T the extra injector supply into the rubber fuel line between the fuel filter and fuel rail where it doesn't contact anything.
Run some hose, add the second T and run hose to each bung.

I recommend running 11.8 A/F's to 11.3 A/F's as rpms increase above 15psi, yes it's rich but you will be running high boost beyond the factory ecu control (yes factory timing is that conservative on these cars), running richer helps cool the air charge, cylinder and lowers risk of compression detonation also you want a safety window, these units deliver consistent
injector duty cycle a X boost and Y rpm, but those duty cycles don't change with temp and baro pressure, these units don't chase a 0-1V lambda wideband signal, you want a safety window, besides when your foot is to the floor running higher than 15psi boost fuel economy is the last thing your worried about.

Injectors hmmm, I run a set of 650 CC and 450CC 2 are RC injectors and 2 are some other performance injectors, I paid nothing for them but I think they are like 100$ each, none of them fit in the bung (the injector ends) I added bigger o ring seals at the tips and used fuel hose pieces at the feed side to seal the injectors to the bungs (always grease orings and seal), the split second extra injector controller connectors fit on the 88-89 F2T injectors, so I recommend using two of those which you can purchase for the low price of 6$ each + shipping from me. 2 F2T injectors and the EIC controller can deliver as much fuel as your current fuel system does now. (2X fuel delivery).
As long as you haven't blocked the inlet and outlet of the injectors and they don't leak they are installed properly.

I was going to recommend selling the functioning components of the AEM kit and buying and Innovate motorsports kit with the money, The only sensor that failed for me since 2003 is the one I damaged installing, they read bellow 10a/f and I have been there tuning meth, I calibrated them once and a while and sometimes don't bother and they seem to always read true (A/F's readings stay consistent as does air, and I haven't blown the engine yet...
But if you search you should be able to find universal heated wideband sensors with the proper number of wires to splice to the AEM connector or any wideband/ heated O2 sensor.

I once watched an add video on Greddy bolt on turbo kit for Acura integra's it yielded (if I recall) 39 hp gains and cost 3500$ us, This could have been last millennia but I remember thinking 3500$ for 39hpr doesn't sound like a good deal. "I make you deal my friend" means they (the seller) make money and you (the buyer) gets screwed.
All these years later and it seems as though Greddy hasn't learned much, stating efficiency is at 21psi is a pretty bold statement for Greddy to make, are they saying this turbo has the same cfm flow rate per psi on a 5.7L LS1 and a 1.8L civic. I would guess (out of thin air) that on the LS1 the peak efficiency range would be 9-13 psi and the 1.8L would be 23-25psi. Maybe they mean on a flow chart it's peak efficiency is at...

Power @ 21psi. It's hard to find what the Greddy has over the Mitsu turbo they both run 10cm2 turbine housing some Greddy's run TD05 comp housings and some TD06.

I will safely say this; a minimum of 10 ft-lb torque per Psi over block power. Block power is like 99HP and 115ft lb torque at the wheels so at 21psi that would be a minimum of 325 ft-lb torque (minimum), with proper air cooling and flow 400 wheel torque is within reason.

325 FT-lb at 4000rpm = 247 whp
325 FT-lb at 6250rpm = 386 whp
400 FT-lb at 4000rpm = 304 whp
400 FT-lb at 6250rpm = 476 whp

Torque accelerates you, the earlier you make it and the longer you hold it the faster the car is. HP represents the amount of work over one minute at that torque and rpm (which isn't constant).
Torque = the torsion at the wheels at that RPM.
HP = the work that could be done over one minute maintaining that torque and rpm.
Torque = acceleration
HPR= potential work over 1 minute

325 ft torque accelerates the same way at 4000 rpm as 6250 rpm.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
74 Posts
Discussion Starter · #12 ·
So ya your right the greddy turbo I have was part of a bolt on kit for a Honda. You would think efficiency range would be lower on this turbo but it is very laggy on the lower end which sucks. Not the ideal turbo for this car but it fell into my lap lol. I'm hoping at higher psi it will have more potential. Will I need a hobbs switch to activate the fuel controller? I am going to order it up soon you got me motivated to enjoy the potential of the car lol. And I will pm you about buying two injectors that would be awesome.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,446 Posts
No need for a Hobbs switch. The controller has a gauge pressure sensor (like a map sensor but gauge pressure starts reading at atmospheric pressure 0 on you boost vacuum gauge, map starts reading at absolute pressure 1bar below atmosphere.) 2 bar map reads vacuum to 15psi, 2 bar gauge sensors reads 0 to 30 psi. So it reads how much boost you are running (sensor voltage) and comes on at the boost you want it to.

Everything you need I listed.

The EIC wiring is simple:
Black -ground
Red- Switched 12V with 16amp minimum fuse
Yellow/Black to coil signal (two wires connect to the coil blue and Black/white, I believe the one closest to the rad is the pulsed signal. Check them with a multimeter, one will have full 12+ constant, coil signal is the other one). T into coil signal.
Connect a Vacuum hose to EIC box nipple (T off boost gauge or FPR).
Plug in the injectors.

I wonder if Honda's could get that turbo to set boost by 6000rpm. I have raced such cars they take off similar to a GMC pickup truck, you floor the gas and the engine thinks about it then it has a discution with the transmission and finally they both decide to start moving but the race is already over. Big turbo Supra's have similar lag on a role but once they spool the Supra catches up and passes you (unlike the Honda).

It shouldn't be so laggy, the big 16G I ran on stock cooler and pipes has the same turbine wheel and housing, it is rated to flow 36lb/m, it did have a custom manifold with 1.65" pipe and ported head but is spooled up as quick as the factory IHI. as a mater of fact the instant torque band of the Big16G was just like that of the VJ11, I remember worrying about what it's going to do to the transmission.

Some of the lag you are experiencing could be air bottle necking at the 1 7/8" intercooler fittings.
You can have 2.5" fittings tig welded to the factory intercooler. You would need two 6" long 2.5" aluminum pipes (10mm thick minimum), cut the factory fittings off the intercooler oval one end of each 2.5" pipe until it fits against the end tanks, mark the ovals on the intercooler end tanks and cut out that area. Weld the pipes to the intercooler.
To fit the 2.5" pipe through the lower rad support:
Use a reciprocating saw and cut and make 6 or more cuts around the front and back hole:
13543


Then fold the piece into the hole until they are folded back against the uncut metal:
13544


This leaves a rounded lip of metal all the way around the openings, a smooth rounded surface instead of a sharp cut out surface, the rounded lip makes it much stronger than a cat hole would be.

What kind of external wastegate are you using, some leak. Spooling with a leaking wastegate is laggy. You can remove the wastegate and fill the valve chamber with water and see if it just leaks past the valve.

You definitely need fuel but after that you need to sort out this boost lag.

I have spare factory intercoolers at low prices.

Also tons of good GT heads, so if you want to take the next step after fuel and fixing boost lag by installing a ported head with extremely large ports, helicoiled studs and large cut valve ports and factory valves we can talk. "I make you deal my friend" ;)
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
74 Posts
Discussion Starter · #14 ·
So my car as a hks external wastegate. The flange is welded off the left side of the stock manifold. Not ideal i know in the center would be better but due to the size of this thing I would've had clearance issues. It is a older hks wastegate not a knock off ebay one also. It seems to work well actually. Originally when I put the greddy turbo on I was using the internal wastegate that was meant for a Honda. It wouldn't let me boost over 12psi the spring was too weak. I'm happy with the way it works I just need to get the vent plumbed back into my downpipe to quiet it down. And obviously venting exhaust gas into the engine bay is dumb lol. That issue will be resolved soon at the muffler shop. I did tap out the exhaust bolt holes on my head to larger and put studs in there instead of bolts. Way stronger. I needed to support the added weight of my new turbo setup. Ported head would be something I would definitely consider as well. I really want to ditch you factory intercooler to be honest. It could be causing a bit of lag for sure. Its not terrible to be honest but definitely does not spool like the little factory turbo I miss that quick spool!. I will see if I can post some pics of my setup
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,446 Posts
I have a brand new in the box stainless steel Mitsubishi 3 inch O2housing with divorced wastegate pipe, 4 bolt wastegate flanges with flex pipe and downpipe bolt-on (not Vband) flange similar to this one (but the downpipe goes in the right direction for our cars):



Sitting in my basement. I was going to use some pieces of it and a T3 flange and 2bolt wastegate flanges to make an O2 housing but I would also consider selling it at a good price if the whole thing could be used.
Do you feel any exhaust coming out of the wastegate pipe with your hand at idle?

You need to modify the factory turbo support bracket to bolt to the 18G turbo.

The factory exhaust manifold uses studs not bolts, it's not the 12.9 grade M8 x1.25 factory studs that are week it's the old aluminum head material the stud is bolted to that gets weak and strips. So the threads in the head will strip long before a new stud or will snap, stainless steel helicoils seem to spread the torque across the aluminum evenly so the aluminum is almost impossible to strip, I bet you could torque a helicoil sleeved bolt right into the head before stripping the helicoil and head threads.

I always helicoil the heads before I start porting it, a few years back somehow on the last two holes I ended up with a 23/64" drill bit instead of the 21/64" needed for m8 helicoils, when I when to cut the threads the tap barely made any threads (holes where too big) I had to drill and thread those two holes and use M10 studs instead, I was happy I could still bolt the manifold to the head but pissed that I had to thread straight into the aluminum because a helicoiled M8 will hold more torque than a M10 threaded into aluminum despite the fact the M10 stud is stronger, If I tried to helicoil the M10 it would cut into the head and create and oil and PCV leak around the helicoil.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
74 Posts
Discussion Starter · #16 ·
Ya i tapped out all the holes in the head a long time ago to m10 studs. The factory turbo support couldnt be used in my case I did mine differently and made a custom support underneath the car that holds the downpipe so in essence its supporting some of the weight or at least adding stability. Had this setup for years now on the car with no issues of manifold leaks loose studs etc. Not since I changed the studs anyway. So I found injector holders that I can buy to weld into my intake pipe. They look like they would be trick but most of them say meant for bosch style injectors. Will the stock f2t ones work with that or no? I can get bosch style 440cc ones from autovalue would those work? Also is there a certain injector size that would be best from your experience? Thanks
13547
Screenshot_20210324-064533_Google.jpg
Screenshot_20210324-064533_Google.jpg
 
1 - 16 of 16 Posts
Top