I don't think a reasonably sized reservoir feeding from eg. wastegate pressure pipe would run out that fast, as each pulse would replenish it; a delayed jet engine cycle, if you will

I think separate runners to cylinders 1-4 and 2-3 have something to do with it; conserving air os something else. It can't be from a bypass, since those aren't used in rally cars.

But, whatever you do, use antilag very very sparingly... it'll eat your turbo in no time. Mine works simply by feeding a rich mixture into a cylinder and then skips a spark. When the next spark hits the cylinder, it's on the exhaust cycle.

 

yeah, thats normal soft mild anti lag, i want full blooded hairy chested MAN antilag

i'm pretty confident that the holset can handle it. its built like a brick shit house. its also got a pretty large exhaust side, so the explosions will have an easy time escaping.

i'm more worried about the manifold blowing apart

i'm outa town for a few days, so no posts from me (sigh of relief echoes through the world of dohc fes)

fred.

 

From what I read the most common is to have it run uber rich at low pressures and have it severly redarted and that will get the engine to run on the exhaust cycle. The heat is what would consern me.

evo

 

yeah, thats why i want proper antilag, not shitty retard to all hell, hold open the trottle and run it rich... thats not road usable...

 

I was under the impression from articles I read many years ago that the antilag system on Celicas was a fifth injector into the exhaust manifold - it was disabled by default on the road model GT4 RCs, but could be enabled in the ECU? I d'no.

Realistically, the only real antilag system is to scrap the hairdryer and get a supercharger

 

the silly car system is an air injection system like what i wanna do. but, i dont know how it actually works, as in, how they get air to go into the exhaust mani. the hardware was there for it, but the mani wasnt drilled below the fittings, and the ecu knew nothing...

also on the silly cars was a water injection system (i forget if it was cooler sprayer, or into the engine) but it was also disabled. the rules state parts must be present, but not necessarily working...

a supercharger is off the menu. i'll go smaller if i cant get anti lag happening.

fred.

 

I have to agree. The best way to remove lag is a super charger.

More info:
Turbo Anti-Lag System - IWSTI.com: Sponsored by www.Subie.tv
and
Anti-Lag System - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
and
Turbo Anti-lag systems - A technical description


Seriously, I was thinking that on certain older cars - late 70's in particular, they came with an "Air Pump" - or "smog pump" also called "air injection". The idea was to help burn off un-combusted hydro carbons to help improve smog producing gases.

HOWEVER, in this case, just a little extra air could go a long way. The smog pump kits for holdens/chevys/fords should not be too expensive... In theory, it's like a little super charger. Put an electromagnetic clutch in, so it only engages less than 3000 rpm, and you've much faster spooling on your turbo - - a supercharger for your exhaust gas.... in effect. Of course, the problem is keeping the hot exhaust gases out of the air pump, but you know...

I think it would a lot safer, and longer lasting than the injection skipping trick that STW is using - more work, since you'd need additionaly hardware, and you'd have to do some additonal fabrication (mount it off of the Alternator.... ) but, it ought to work.

Just another point of view. The whole fuel injection into the manifold is rather off putting to me. But then, my bias is towards reliability.

The best overall solution is a turbo feeding a supercharger, ala the Lancia Delta, and the VW TwinCharger... use the Supercharger at low speeds, then switch over to the turbo, and use both if you happen to have 150 octane fuel and want four bar boost.

 

I have to agree. The best way to remove lag is a super charger.

More info:
Turbo Anti-Lag System - IWSTI.com: Sponsored by www.Subie.tv
and
Anti-Lag System - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
and
Turbo Anti-lag systems - A technical description

read those, the relevant bit is at the bottom of the wiki page. the other two are pretty crap...

Seriously, I was thinking that on certain older cars - late 70's in particular, they came with an "Air Pump" - or "smog pump" also called "air injection". The idea was to help burn off un-combusted hydro carbons to help improve smog producing gases.

tell me more tell me more

HOWEVER, in this case, just a little extra air could go a long way.

yes, yes it could.

The smog pump kits for holdens/chevys/fords should not be too expensive... In theory, it's like a little super charger. Put an electromagnetic clutch in, so it only engages less than 3000 rpm, and you've much faster spooling on your turbo - - a supercharger for your exhaust gas.... in effect. Of course, the problem is keeping the hot exhaust gases out of the air pump, but you know...

4 check valves and some fab is easy stuff for me. i'd have to look into how much volume they could pump out.

I think it would a lot safer, and longer lasting than the injection skipping trick that STW is using - more work, since you'd need additionaly hardware, and you'd have to do some additonal fabrication (mount it off of the Alternator.... ) but, it ought to work.

safer for the engine, but less safe for the manifold and turbo. i think its going to be fine though.

Just another point of view. The whole fuel injection into the manifold is rather off putting to me. But then, my bias is towards reliability.

the fuel goes into the cylinders overly rich, and is still only partially burnt when it exits again. thus you are just burning the leftovers all of a sudden later rather than a whole lot just for antilag thats been all the way through the engine and is burning as it exits. ie, there is no fuel injection into the exhaust. its just running uber rich. and in the case of the half arsed type, the throttle stays open a little too, and you end up needing a vac pump to operate the brakes.

fred.

 

With 'true' antilag apparently the IHI turbos seem to hold up better than there garrett counterparts... possibly the reason standard(ish) WRXs can run antilag systems(with just a upgraded ecu) and get decent life out of them(year plus and counting)...

Im sure Sick has something to say about antilag lol...

A nice alternative that may do the job for the FE3, Bee*R has a kit for the SR20DET(which surely could be easily modified for FE3T) which runs a supercharger with a turbo blowing thru it (or vise versa cant remember)... No lag with that system.

 

all I really know of anti-lag is that for drag racing it works well.

YouTube - Turbo S2000 Run 10.7 @ 129miles

that's my mates S2000 on this run he ran antilag setup through his ECU so he had boost off the line. you notice the backfires.

But all other anti-lag is on top pro rally cars. yet under most of there rules conditions - they need it so they have god sort out systems to keep them on boost.
I don't see why you need it in NZ - then again most of your roads are like rallys.

They do put alot of stress on your turbocharger but. I know a few people running group N type production rally cars in both national and smaller loacl compitions and most can use it but they don't because the cost of killling a turbo for that minor bit of performance is not worth it. Most just drive around the lag. but most of the cars are setup for almost no lag right ratios' etc.

That bit on the GT4's it was an option for rally owners. When they bought there GT4's for rally use Toyota had a number of options. They could option the ECU for examples and the hi-spec Denso unit was mapped for more boost and more torque but did not meet emissions etc. This was I think on the St185 or St186 only the first model with air -to air top mount, beofre they went Water to air. But on the later model about 93 they went water to air cooler the whole setup was even stronger again.

Some of you noted early or lates 80's cars
Back then to clean up emissions they used vacuum pumps or air pumps to pump in freash air into the exhuast system so not only did you loose power from bad pre Cat exhuast you lost 1-3hp at the crank driving this pump.
The thing is people have turned them into anti- lag type setups with right retard and extra rich fuel it works well.

but again of course the main issue with anit lag is turbo damage to the turbine - not so much the housing as it can take the sudden change of temperature - well it can take it better then of a turbine.
Don't try it on ceramice wheel RB garrett turbo.

But to give you an Idea you can turn a turbocharger into a Small jet engine.

you plump the compressoe outlet into venturi of small chamber basicly a nossle add a injector for fuel- feed into another smaller outset so air fule mixes behind it add glow plub for ignition or spark plug then plum the out let to the turbine inlet and make small after burner exhuast and mount to device - feed it gas and one quick spark.
Jet enigne now it was comon to do this at Qanats by apprentices to find away to improve it etc and see if you can make it last.

Results we made the injector not melt by pre mixing before spark or igniton area.
that's all we did and it last 2 mins more the early guys. Turbine wheel melted - lost compressor pressure flame caught up to open injector - ONe bit bang.
only good big on turbo was compressor and rest was stuffed. Even the oil feeding the bearings could not keep up.

Anti lag is very similar.

 

all I really know of anti-lag is that for drag racing it works well.

YouTube - Turbo S2000 Run 10.7 @ 129miles

that's my mates S2000 on this run he ran antilag setup through his ECU so he had boost off the line. you notice the backfires.

can you fix your link, it might be messing up windoze users... i fixed it in the quote.

But all other anti-lag is on top pro rally cars. yet under most of there rules conditions - they need it so they have god sort out systems to keep them on boost.
I don't see why you need it in NZ - then again most of your roads are like rallys.

thats just it, when sideways (and i am sideways a LOT) you NEED good, ney, great response... so i must have a solution for throttle modulation whatever it is...

They do put alot of stress on your turbocharger but. I know a few people running group N type production rally cars in both national and smaller loacl compitions and most can use it but they don't because the cost of killling a turbo for that minor bit of performance is not worth it. Most just drive around the lag. but most of the cars are setup for almost no lag right ratios' etc.

i also want some better ratios for the ute, but that doesnt solve the skid problems, and thats what i love to do most. it also doesnt solve the mid corner modulation proplems either, and i need that to be spot on also for going as fast as possible on a track (or windy road) with maximal safety and control.

That bit on the GT4's it was an option for rally owners. When they bought there GT4's for rally use Toyota had a number of options.

homologation spec cars had it, otherwise silly car purchasers couldnt use it in the rally, and wouldnt have an advantage over other vehicles.

Some of you noted early or lates 80's cars
Back then to clean up emissions they used vacuum pumps or air pumps to pump in freash air into the exhuast system so not only did you loose power from bad pre Cat exhuast you lost 1-3hp at the crank driving this pump.
The thing is people have turned them into anti- lag type setups with right retard and extra rich fuel it works well.

now, this is the good oil, any links etc on these pumps and or ppl that have done it? sounds feasible. i'd still like to know how well a venturi system would work. once there was a bit of spool in the turbo, i reckon it could keep it spinning, but getting it there from idle maybe not so easy.

but again of course the main issue with anit lag is turbo damage to the turbine - not so much the housing as it can take the sudden change of temperature - well it can take it better then of a turbine.
Don't try it on ceramice wheel RB garrett turbo.

yeah, i know those are shit, no one worth their salt uses them for much at all... fine stock, but above stock, you need to ditch them... the holset on the other hand is a brick shit house, and i'm confident that it can survive intermittent als use for my application.

fred.

 

look at well hmm NZ didn't get some of the emiison things we got in Aus or the US

I know in Aus there is on the Rx-7 S2 and S3 a air pump.

but THe main thing to look at might be early model Commodores about 83 or so. they had the air pump up untill about 86. All the carby ones.


Oh and it was water sprayer on the early Air to air top mount and then a Water injection set-up. Rules were still being thought out. on the Gt4 that is. Yeah all the homoligated cars mostly the Jap sold ones.

I think from memory the toyota setup was air injection -over rich setup. effectively on every 4th cycle of each cylinder it would fire late or something along that line. It was quite well thought out. It's why the Toyota Rally team hear still uses a full GT4 setup in a Corrolla.

Mitsubishi get around it with Titanium turbine on the turbo and this allows retard - anit-lag.

but I think over all with your ute not weighing that much anyway. Your better off with a more responseive turbo. It really depends how unresponsive your current one is.
With limited weight to move and well obvious lack of traction you should be able to keep it on boost with ease. I know few turbo Hilux utes that can't get on the throttle because the rear just kicks out.

Most of the winding roads don't have long straights in them. So top end would not be a problem.

 

I know in Aus there is on the Rx-7 S2 and S3 a air pump.

but THe main thing to look at might be early model Commodores about 83 or so. they had the air pump up untill about 86. All the carby ones.

thank you very much.

but I think over all with your ute not weighing that much anyway. Your better off with a more responseive turbo. It really depends how unresponsive your current one is.
With limited weight to move and well obvious lack of traction you should be able to keep it on boost with ease. I know few turbo Hilux utes that can't get on the throttle because the rear just kicks out.

there isnt that much lack of traction. in the dry, only first has issues and second is geared how first should be... so when i sort out the gear ratios it will be fine to drive, its just the sliding aspect that i want to be controllable. and it just cant be without a much smaller unit (and less power) or antilag, so i'll try to make it work as it is. the goal is 500 - 550crank hp (ie, max the holset out) and drivable in all ways. that kind of rules out the small turbo option. though, if i have to, i'll drop back to the 300hp region just for skids

Most of the winding roads don't have long straights in them. So top end would not be a problem.

i want both or i'll throw a tanty ;-) and most of the roads i play on do have straights... they come between the corners. thing is that if i go small, i'll be able to boost high (25psi) in the mid range, but not till redline, so the torque curve will fall off bad as i back off the boost to avoid death of the turbo as the rpms rise. i'd rather run less boost than have a midrangy engine, the usa built v8 guys can keep them!

 

Here's a picture of Lancer Evolution IV with an anti-lag system. By the looks of it, it seems to get its source for air right before the throttle body. And it looks to be controlled by some sort of valve that opens/closes based on vacuum or maybe by a solenoid that starts to open it up based on TPS position.

Hope this helps out.

 

Here's a picture of Lancer Evolution IV with an anti-lag system. By the looks of it, it seems to get its source for air right before the throttle body. And it looks to be controlled by some sort of valve that opens/closes based on vacuum or maybe by a solenoid that starts to open it up based on TPS position.

Hope this helps out.

where did you source that pic? are you sure its not egr? i thought the toy system was the only one on a road car at the time?

thanks for the pic though

 

I got it while back from the guys at LancerRegister.com.

It doesn't look like an egr setup because its appears to be feeding into the exhaust. Plus I have never seen an egr feed directly into the throttle body or take exhaust gases from more than one feed.

 

good call. silly me.

 

nah that evo5 onwar engine - it's not anti lag it's mix of both air injection and egr. it's bit to comply with euro 3 or Jap 19 ? or similar emission came in in 1997 in Japan.

it's bit of both. goes both ways. unlike EGR goes one way and air injection goes there other, it's does both.

 

Antilag? Go to the source..... The Umluft

Audi made a very ingenious and effective antilag system for their quattros on the groupB era.

Effectively they ran 2 sets of wastgates on their exhaust manifold. One was a standard wastegate controlling boost pressure by bleeding exhaust gasses. The other wastegate was acting as a relocated bypass valve directing boosted air that would have normally have to be bled off to the atmosphere back into the exhaust manifold.

Add a second set of injectors(or a layered injection pattern) to take advantage of the extra air being injected in the exhaust manifold...presto, antilag.

They do say though that this was on the extreme side of things in the antilag genre requiring frequent rebuilds(exhaust valves only last for 1hr?...yikes!). But its interesting as a look at how it was done.

Gavin

 

Okay, another thought on Anti-lag options -- what about a variable nozzle turbo - ala the VW/Garrett VNT Turbos??

It isn't a anti-lag system, but in theory, you get full reliability but with better spooling characteristics --
Turbotech - Australia's specialist in turbochargers - Garrett Turbochargers



But really, what you want fred, is a supercharged, variable-nozzle turbo, with dual wastegate/bypass setup, along with nitrous, and CO2 spray on your intercoolers --- then you'd get instant boost - all the time, and massive power...

and a very very light wallet, a weight reduction which will undoubtable help.



Seriously, I like that dual waste gate idea. It would seem to me, that you should be able to store the waste exhaust gasses somehow, and re-use them to keep the turbo spooled. It would require that you start the car up, and have it running for a little while, to buildup pressure, but then once the "bypass storage" container is full, then you'll get your anti-lag effect, via the second valve....

I don't know how practical. You'd want to keep the exhaust gases hot.... and the timing on the valves will be rough... you'd almost want to set things up so that it is always overboosting, so that you'd have something to go into the "bypass storage" container...

I'm imagining some crazy U-shaped pipe, with a bulge in the middle, and two check valves, one on each end. On one side it is connected to the main waste-gate, that would be the input to the "bypass storage", and the other end goes to the exhaust manifold before the turbo - almost like a fifth cylinder.... definitely custom manifold time. When the pressure is too low in your exhaust, it would open - and you'd get the contents of the "bypass storage" into your turbo...

Somehow, I don't think it would work very well.


I'm still voting for a Supercharger added to the system.

 

Okay, another thought on Anti-lag options -- what about a variable nozzle turbo - ala the VW/Garrett VNT Turbos??

It isn't a anti-lag system, but in theory, you get full reliability but with better spooling characteristics --
Turbotech - Australia's specialist in turbochargers - Garrett Turbochargers

I'm still voting for a Supercharger added to the system.

for the same reason a supercharger is no good, so is a vnt no good : budget

including shipping the holset (530hp turbo) came to 750nz thats 1/4 of what a brand new garret of equal potential would have cost. i went to the expensive end of holsets offerings because i'm fussy and i wanted it pretty new and therefore A reliable, and B efficient. i got what i wanted. my turbo was supposed to have done about 2500miles or so, and its like brand new. literally.

evo : that ign cut system is less sophisticated and worse than the heavy retard system thats easy to get happening with ms and no further mods.

but, i dont like what it will do to the exhaust valves on the way out...

gavin, thanks for posting that link, very interesting indeed. i hadnt considered the idea of "blowing off" straight out the exhaust a pretty clever idea, but i dont think it would work for me on the street. if you welded in a 5th runner to the collector such that it aimed straight for the turbine, and didnt use the air to ignite fuel in the exhaust, but just to blow the turbine around, it would work nicely during shifts. off idle though, it couldnt build boost like i want.

i'm not concerned about spool between shifts, thats not too bad as it is even with the sucky ratios. what i want is for the turbo to not unspool when i lift to control a slide or prevent a slide when cornering hard. the latter, i'm sure you know what i mean.

i mean, i've slid cars all my life, i live sideways, but i took the ute round a largish roundabout on the way home after tuning it for boost in the wet, and i tried to slide it smoothly all the way around... i couldnt. i could lean on it and it would build boost and skid out, but when i lifted, the turbo would more or less stall, and upon reapplying, there was no torque to keep the skid happening, result : lots of skid angle, no skid angle, lots of skid angle, no skid angle. i couldnt slide it smoothly.

i'm sure with practice i could get it better, but i'm good at that shit, and i couldnt do it off the bat. i found that frustrating, cause its one of my favourite things, that and sex. its a hard call which i like more.

hence "proper antilag". perhaps i'll just have to wait and try it myself

i could use a control strategy to take the vac feed away from the bovs and thereby create pressure at the same time releasing a controlled amount of air into the exhaust (rather than all of it as audi seemed to do) and without the boost pushing the valves closed, the would bleed off any excess pressure that exceeded their spring pressure. i could log a second map sensor for tuning it. to see what sorts of pressures were found. i'd need to replumb the wastegate feed to pre throttle to ensure that it vented exhaust gasses if there was a need also. that ought to keep it from over spooling, and yet make sure that there was pressure in the intake ready to pass the throttle after i stop lifting. i'm not too worried if the system cant start it spooling, so long as it can keep it spooled when i'm doing skids/cornering hard at part throttle...

i hope you lot all see where i'm coming from now

 

Browser Warning

Read this:

"When switched on, a random cylinder ignition cut was employed using a simple circuit consisting of a 555 timer and a power tranny shorting the coil (heavily heat-sinked!). The passed mixture was ignited using a spark plug that was tapped into the exhaust manifold, and was driven by an EHT circuit (I think it was the Jacobs Ladder power supply from memory). But we had pretty severe cracking problems that occurred due to the thermal stresses incurred by dissimilar metals placed together. I think that the spark plug expanded more. The carby was jetted so that it ran pretty rich too. The circuit switched itself off after the engine RPM hit 2500 (using the shift light circuit), and was switched off after the car reached third gear (micro-switch).
Once switched on, the combustion WAS controlled, and sounded like a bloody great V8 with only 6 cylinders firing. The exhaust manifold glows a pretty colour after about 30 seconds though (as did the turbo)! On launch, the car spat a 2-3 foot yellow-blue flame that was only really visible at night. For the best launch, the car was revved up to 2000rpm at the lights (keeping an eye on the boost, letting it build up to 7psi, and letting the wastegate do the work) then either a slip or a dump of the clutch. There were problems though. Once, on take off, the spark plug lead fell off and the car was pumping raw fuel into the manifold. It ignited, and blew burning fuel out the tailpipe all over the front grille of the car behind us. OOPS!
The engine ran like shit when the system was running - really lumpy - so the revs had to be kept up or it would stall. Mind you, the mixture wasn't exactly stoichiometric!
We were also experimenting with propane injection into the manifold. We actually had more success with this method - the explosions were more powerful thus making it more effective - but as the exhaust manifold finally blew itself to bits, we decided that it really wasn't worth the effort. But the main disadvantage of this ignition-cut only system was that the fuel charge would cool the manifold (we believed) causing thermal stress = cracking manifold. Air injection would still be a wise thing to try, we also tried pure oxygen injected into the manifold with limited success..."

evo

 

variable vane geometry turbo Cost bugger all in comparisson to a full anti lag setup..

Your claiming oyu can't afford one - how can oyu afford a probler anti-lag.
I know of two engine Managment systems built to run such things and both cost more then a VGT

 

you dont know of ms, and that i am a software developer by trade, and can implement any control strategy i like in the open and freely available code, that my friend is as free as laying the beads onto the air injection tubes...

no need to post around to cause trouble just because you got your tits in a tangle.

 

Not here to cause trouble I just don't see the point.

It's your project and your free to do as you wish. If I had a homiligated GT-4 I would proberly want to fit up myself as well.

MS to me is an average system. Nothing special if it was decent I'd proberly see more use of it but I don't.

Anti-lag it's great for this for that but it's not great soloution, there is always a compromise. I know people say the new 911 Turbo has not lag etc but it's BS it has lag yes very very very minor but you notice it regardless.
Lag will always be an issue in turbo car using Boost to create power to compenstate for both lack of capacity and excessive weight.

 

MS to me is an average system. Nothing special if it was decent I'd proberly see more use of it but I don't.

if you dont open your eyes, you do not see. there are at least 4 fe3s running it. hell, there are probably only 20 or so fe3ts around (at least online) at all. there are 15000ms registered users, maybe more like 20000, and there are countless others out there that use it and have never got a login because its easy enough to not need one.

its the best value most versatile customisable solution there is. it can do whatever you want to make it do. code exists (good code, NOT built to a budget) to do most anything you want anyway. and if it doesnt, you can A ask, and B just do it yourself.

thats immensely powerful.

as for antilag having lag... properly setup antilag has no such issue. thats the whole point of antilag, the turbo is artificially spooled all the time, when you lift, you feed flames at it to make it keep spinning enough to push the boost you need, and the airflow you want to keep throttle response linear with respect to opening and time.

ps, we dont use small displacement engines because we cant afford bigger ones, we use them because they are light for their output when turboed. vehicle weight irrespective. rpm and boost easily make up for capacity. antilag can make up for a bigger turbo to some extent, and i'll be finding out just how much it can do for me at some stage.

some stats i calculated for you :

rodhogs percentage of posts with karma : 3.5 - 5.3%
mine : 19%
sleepcounter (hes still a member to me) : 18.5 - 24.6%
gavin : 53.8 - 80.7% (thats how you do it!!) (i love quoting that figure)
sick : 7.8% +++ (2000+ ? whats the real number? this is too low)
carcenomy : 20.7 - 31.1

etc etc

these numbers directly related to credibility and how much you contribute per post. ie, you are not credible, and have little respect from your peers. perhaps its better that you quit now while you arent too far behind?

to put that post there with that timing with regards the other thread was only for that purpose, and nothing else. dont try to pass it off as something constructive.

once again, and just to be sure, holset 750nz including shipping near new, vnt turbo which STILL HAS LAG at least 3 - 4 times that, probably more (for same power potential) not a good option.

 

some stats i calculated for you :

rodhogs percentage of posts with karma : 3.5 - 5.3%
mine : 19%
sleepcounter (hes still a member to me) : 18.5 - 24.6%
gavin : 53.8 - 80.7% (thats how you do it!!) (i love quoting that figure)
sick : 7.8% +++ (2000+ ? whats the real number? this is too low)
carcenomy : 20.7 - 31.1

etc etc

.

Oh so sorry I didn't realise your a internet Proffessor. Dam it's so hard to see
On the net.

Oh I don't have Karma nah - yes I don't post to help people true. I don't, I only do it some of the time.
I only build cars for REAL world events not internet pages. I do it for Magazine awards DVD's etc. Oh I forgot, I'm on the internet. Crap.

I should not work on people cars - I'm wasting my time, they pay me to fix and detail there cars to win awards at shows and I know nothing.
I'm so sorry. MS is greatest - No one in australia Uses it. No race team here I have ever seen at any major even including V8 supercars - you do know about them don't you. Oh we don't use Ms - we must idiots. Why do we use Autronic and Motec.
Oh dam why did we build up a Rx-7 20B and run a Motec - we could have used a Mega ??? waht ever.

Oh need karma.
Oh don't worry.

I'll be happy enoguh to leave you alone and I'll just be glad to see the car I've worked on or build on or just be associated with - Be in many magazines on covers or in DVD's. They won't be on the internet, on intent pages with list of modifications and Mythical 1.4 mile times and lap times.

I think I need to go study up on how to rebuild this new motor it's only 2JZ but I need to go find a a answer on the internet, as have Race engine builder work with me is no good he got no Karma. :shrug:

I'll leave you with the yanks and laugh.

 

Getting back on topic.

Thinking about things, going back to first principles - you can't get something for nothing.

I think the idea that has the most merit is directly injecting fuel into the manifold that feeds the turbo -- making a little jet engine effectively.

Basically, you'd need to add a fifth injector, which has very different firing profile from your other injectors.

To make this effective, and to keep your turbo alive for a long time, you'd have to make some changes -- effectively increase the heat capacity/tolerance of your system. I think the easiest way to do this, would be to put some special high temperature ceramic coating on the *inside* of your manifold and on the hot side of your turbo, and on the downpipe, all the way up to the catalytic converter (wait, you still have one of those, right? )

Why? -- keep the darn turbo spooled all the time - make it a fricking JET engine.

You'll need the fuel injector from a diesel, that's the only thing that can take the temperature/pressure in the manifold, and a high pressure injector pump - again, from a diesel. You should be able to run high octane gas, straight in to the manifold.

If you've got your manifold/turbo properly coated (the most expensive thing), then you'll be able to take the extra high temperature which will result from running the turbo as a jet engine.

Once the turbo is spooled - you don't need to inject any more fuel.
You probably don't want to inject any extra fuel when coasting.


I was trying to think about this, while in the shower, in the following terms:
1) You can't get something for nothing.
2) Heat drives the turbo. Increase the heat to spool the turbo, keep the heat constant.
3) How do you increase heat? Dump fuel into the exhaust manifold !
4) How do you do that safely??? Just a little, at the right time, take proper precautions
5) Weld, Coat, Take pictures, Enjoy!



In other words, I think before I was wrong, and that the bang-bang systems are the right idea. Really, the only way to do it well. Don't bother with the wasted spark and extra injectors, just shove some more fuel directly into a prepared exhaust manifold and enjoy!

 

Not to mention that the variable geometry Garrett turbos are dinky and pale in comparison to the Holset he is using. Even if you put the compressor housing on a lathe and machined it to accept say a TO4E 60 trim wheel, the turbine wheel is still very small compared to the standard T3 turbine. And with the VGT exhaust housing, there isn't much that you can do for machining. So, you'd be left with an oversized ill suited compressor wheel (when sized according to increase in surface area IE size % increase vs the turbine wheel) and a turbine with a tendency to overspool when the boost is raised.

+1 for Fred. (I'm out of Karma this round)

 

dumping fuel into the manifold is no good unless you dump air in at the same time.

i'm not sure that i'd be happy with injecting fuel into the exhaust even if it was legal in nz. dont know if it is?

you can over fuel the engine (even if its round robin style) to supply fuel safely through the cylinders while introducing air safely through the exhaust and thus creating the heat/bangs needed for spool.

the difference in operation of the turbo normally and when using any of these antilag setups is that the internally combusted gasses come as a bunch of fast hot air. the antilag comes as a single wall of impacting hot burning air. i witnessed the effectiveness of that when i wired my coils incorrectly shortly before successfully starting the engine for the first time.

it went something like this :

splutter splutter bang whiiiiirrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr

;-)

ie, you dont need the volume of gasses to keep it spooled because the sheer velocity and pressure of the explosive ones from antilag is enough in lesser quantities.

i'd like ceramics, but thats more $$ that i dont need to spend. although i know the benefits are real, that manifold comes within an inch of the bonnet, and the paint was unaffected in my shortish but hardish use of it thus far, hence i think that heat lost at the moment is not significant.

i think its wrong to say that heat drives the turbo. i think its velocity and mass that drive it. as the temperature falls, the velocity falls, hence the "keep the manifold hot" beliefs that are around.

in this case what you exchange for constant boost is reliability. how much of it i dont know. but i'm willing to find out. it will be a dash switched system, so it will only be on when i wanna play, not all the time. if the turbo would last 3000km with it on constantly, then it should last much more if its on only 10% of the time.

lastly i guess, dumping in fuel without air wont produce any heat anyway, not unless the engine is running uber lean at the time.

so, sick, how many karma points do you have? i wanna make that little chart accurate...

 

Going off the deep-end --- thinking out loud - hybrid engine cycles...

dumping fuel into the manifold is no good unless you dump air in at the same time.

right. I didn't address that.

i'm not sure that i'd be happy with injecting fuel into the exhaust even if it was legal in nz. dont know if it is?

a) do you care?
b) does it matter?
c) are there any emissions testing?
d) this is for *science* - it's okay.

ie, you dont need the volume of gasses to keep it spooled because the sheer velocity and pressure of the explosive ones from antilag is enough in lesser quantities.

Right - you don't need the volume. We just need enough fuel to use up the remaining oxygen, and get one more little burst of energy. Run Lean up until the point the turbo normally kicks in, and inject a little fuel to help kick the turbo on early.

i think its wrong to say that heat drives the turbo. i think its velocity and mass that drive it. as the temperature falls, the velocity falls, hence the "keep the manifold hot" beliefs that are around.

Heat = high velocity molecules.

I don't think it is technically wrong, misleading perhaps - it depends on what you are thinking of when we talk about heat.

Keeping the manifold hot, will definitely help.

The physics of a turbo are such that you are using the waste heat to perform work - the work is compressing air. If you maintain that differential (no matter how you maintain it) of heat, then you will continue to do work (e.g. spin the turbine).

lastly i guess, dumping in fuel without air wont produce any heat anyway, not unless the engine is running uber lean at the time.

Ah, now that's a very good point.

This is where we get to cheat - with high enough temperatures (see ceramics), and great disregards to environmental regulations, we get to engage in *funky* combustion products. We just need to add enough fuel to be burned off by the remaining oxygen --- there *always* is some,

You'll definitely have to tune on the lean side for the primary combustion- but only when the turbo isn't spooled. Once the turbo is spooled, then we run rich again.. .




Think of it as running a diesel turbine (on gasoline) from the exhaust gases of your motor - but the diesel turbine is powering a compressor, which is boosting your motor.

The question is - how lean can you run the piston engine - safely, how much air can you get into the turbo manifold, and how much fuel can you put into the turbo to get it to burn the fuel -- we can increase the safety by running water injection --- yes it will cool, but remember, it will be plenty hot coming out, and if we can push it the right way, you'd get a little extra oxygen ouf of the deal....

I don't think it is a question of putting lots of fuel into the turbo, rather - it will be putting *just* the right amount, at the right time, to keep the turbo spooled all the time -- sure you should be able to switch this on and off, and it'll probably have trouble getting started, but once the cycle is started, it should ought to work. It'd take some serious tuning to get it to run.



kinda like how power plants run multi-stage hybrid power systems, you'd be creating a hybrid multi-stage engine. It would not longer be purely a Otto cycle, it'd be a Fred-Cycle engine.

think along the lines of Crowers six stroke engine...
Inside Bruce Crower’s Six-Stroke Engine - AutoWeek



OR

MAYBE EVEN SIMPLER --- just divert some air from the cold side of turbo, add a little fuel, and shove that into the exhaust manifold.
ala
Brayton cycle - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Keep the turbo boosting all the time.... you'll need a solenoid/valve, which is computer controlled - obviously you just want to keep it boosting *all* the time...
So when you let off the throttle, you'd open up that valve, some of the air from the compresser would go straight to the exhaust side, along with fuel, you've got plenty of heat + a little more oxygen, presto - keep that turbo spooled up.


Sure, the piping is complicated - and you'd have to add a control system some how, but it should be cheap, and effective....

 

Why do Australians use Autronic and Motec?- simple, they're specific to Australia just like Megasquirt is specific to the U.S because ding ding- it was made here.

Why don't the Australian guys use Megasquirt more often?- simple, they either don't know about it yet or don't have any money left after paying top dollar for a motec setup that Megasquirt can do for 3x more money left in your wallet.

Why do large race teams use Autornic and especially Motec?- simple, once you're a "big race tem" parts don't cost the same as they used to and are often given to you for free. In short, you'd be a fool not to use their parts....that is if you're already bending over for the corporate paycheck.

 

interesting reading

the reason i dont want fuel, esp high pressure fuel where its really really hot is fire. i dont like fire (cept when i'm playing with it...). i esp dont like high pressure fuel fed fires.

the fuel would be vapourising behind the injector unless the pressure was enormous. vapour pressure would own you.

thats why we run rich, and have excess fuel, not o2 in the exhaust and add air to let it burn.

pretty much exactly like the audi system, but lower scale and only sometimes on.

(cheers gavin)

fred.

 

(cheers tully)

fred.

Fixed it for ya. I think?